The Fw 190A-9 of Siegfried Baer, 5.Staffel, II./JG301, in Detail....

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

To get that last bit straight in my head, ur saying the LW lost 83+ fighters out of 120 that attacked, and that the 8th AF lost 5?????????

Were all those losses to fighter opposistion Bill, or is it combined??? U kinda lost me...

Dan - summary
The 8th AF FC awarded 120 air scores on November 26. They lost 5 in air combat - one of which crashed after the one he chased to the ground.

The 83+ number referred to total number of awards to three Fighter groups plus the 8 2SF Mustangs (an extension of 355) in the battles 40 miles west of Hannover to 40 miles east of Hannover between 1210 and 1300. These are the units that took on all of JG301, a large part of JG1 plus at least one Gruppe of JG6.

My writing style needs polishing but the net of the discussion in my book is that approximately 130 Mustangs were engaged in battle with 200 plus Fw 190s and Me 109s trying to defend Misburg.

This is why I react now to much of the history recounted by post war German Fighter pilots regarding 'the overwhelming numerical superiority' of US escorts. The sky is one huge ocean and these battles were microcosms of two big organizations fought in a relatively small space-time - they (both sides) deserve all the credit for the courage required to engage.. it doesn't need to be embellished regarding the 'odds'

I wish the German records were intact enough to really get the OOB and reasonable loss/damage results. It is historians like Prien (and Erich) that dig and dig on what is available to render useful info.. Erich has been a huge help to my own research and Leo Etgen is way up there in helping me develop the 355FG Encounter Log to pinpoint units.

At any rate I hope I cleared up what I meant versus what I wrote..

PS - I don't have time to build the stash I have of Hasegawa 1/32. If you want my Fw190d and Me 109G-10 send me your address via PM. I'm in the middle of building a highly modified Top-Flite 1/7 scale 51B of my father's first bird for the Fighter Aces Museum and it is consuming me. Learning to craft and pull a malcom hood is a bitch!

[A4K]

Drgondog, Heinz got the 'I'll trade U 4 that' thread up and running again. If there's anything you want to sell or swap, drop a post on the thread!

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by A4K

Drgondog, Heinz got the 'I'll trade U 4 that' thread up and running again. If there's anything you want to sell or swap, drop a post on the thread!

THx A4K.. I didn't have too many 'spares' anyway but appreciate the heads up.

[Adolf Galland Fighter ace]

Nice build!
Great grave markers, nice too see the men of those days are not forgotten in Germany either.

[Wayne Little]

Originally Posted by Wayne Little

Matt, Erich and Wurger are correct, when I say supposedly, this is because there IS written reference in various books and sites that some DID have the Ta tail, however WE collectively haven't seen photographic evidence yet! Maybe there is, maybe there isn't......
In one Kagero publication it states next to one photo that this crashed A-9 may have the Ta tail, well guess what you can't see the tail!.....?

Matt if you wish to have a go at one, please do, it would make a great "what if" subject to see!

Found one with the Ta152 tail!!! stay tuned will post a pic tomorrow when I can get at the other computer and scanner.

Eric, it was right under our noses all the time!

[Wurger]

Waiting for the pic.

[Catch22]

That'll be cool.

[Wayne Little]

Now, I hope you weren't expecting a 'perfect' picture? because it's not but it does confirm the existence and use of the Ta152 tail on a standard Fw190A or maybe even an F series aircraft?
This image is a blowup of a portion of an aerial photo.

Read the caption and look at aircraft No.2!

Picture Credit, Focke Wulf Fw190 Dora by Jerry Crandall, Eagle Editions.

[lesofprimus]

Interesting, but conclusive??? I cant tell the difference... Im sure whoever reported it on the ground was better informed...

[MattQ]

I'm looking at doing a late A with the large tail. I guess I'll have to use the dreaded "artistic license" for markings. Maybe do a scenario where the tail is obviously a field replacement to get the plane back in the air. Probably unlikely, but who can say what happened in the chaos of the last days........

[Wurger]

Good find Wayne but I'm still not convinced.I've tried to find something more but failed.

[Wayne Little]

Ok you doubters and non believers... , let's see if I can convince you!

Photo number one shows an excellent side view of a Ta152 tail, note the distinct broad squared/rounded shape of the forward section.
You can clearly see this shape on both Aircraft No. one and two in the first posted image and the now second cropped image in this post. The sunlight clearly showing the shape of the tail.
Now note the position of the tails, with the red circles and the RED line of approximate direction from where the third photo was taken.

Now look between the engine and the mid wing of aircraft 5, you can see the top of the broad tail with the top arm of the swastika just visible in the large red circle.
You can clearly see the top of the rudder to the left, indicating that the aircraft is facing to the right.

The smaller red circle shows the tail of aircraft No.1 (less distinct).

Further inspection of photo No.2 shows that this tail can only belong to Aircraft No.2.

Does this evidence now convince you?

Photo Credits : Fw190 Dora by Jerry Crandall image 2, Image 1 and 3 cropped from the Internet via ebay, but are in the Dora 9 book in larger uncropped pictures

[Heinz]

great info Wayne!

[lesofprimus]

OK, with that addtional picture u posted Wayne, as well as ur added comments concerning the tail, I fell that it is infact a 190A with the 152 tail...

Excellent work Wayne...

[Wurger]

Now you have convinced me Wayne.THX for really great job.