F-22 vs....

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by mkloby

Damn right - cutting through all the BS. I wonder how the final production F-35s will stack up.

All depends on who gets into office during the next election. If Obama or Clinton get in, count on the defense budget getting slashed per the Democrat modus operandi.

[plan_D]

The Typhoon will not be able to match up alongside the F-22 until, at least, 2010 when Europe introduces their own AESA into the Typhoon.

[joy17782]

well with all the cash there spending on these planes , they should be able too cook dinner for you and give you he%d when your flying , but in all things i wonder if any of the goverments think about prolong wars and the time it takes too make these planes and train the flyguys !!!!! too fly them ?

[plan_D]

I assume you're asking if any government wonders what they will do if there's a long war, and they need replacements? Well, aircraft can be built extremely quickly in times of war. Once all the machines and jigs are in place you can rattle a lot of aircraft off. The training of pilots is a completely different matter, and I don't think any modern country could throw out as many pilots capable of flying todays machines as they did in ...say, World War II when aircraft were basic and flying was relatively easy.

[mkloby]

Well from when I first began flying to pinning on my wings it was 26 months. This does include 3 PCS moves, and about 5 months of pool time waiting to do something. I didn't even get qualified in the MV-22 yet since I have a little hiatus now.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

The Typhoon II is not a generation 5 fighter. Its a Generation 4.5 fighter, much like the Super Hornet.

The F-22 is faster, far more manuverable, stealthy, can carry a heavier/larger weapons load, makes less demands on the pilot to fly, is more fuel efficient, has a longer range. I don't know where you got the idea that the Typhoon as a better pilots interface considering the EAP first flew in 1986 (the first actual Typhoon in 1994). The F-22 has had the advantage of nearly 10 extra years of technological development.

I didn't get any ideas buddy, the EF Typhoon has the best & most sophisticated pilots interface in the world, and its pilots wear the best G-suit in the world as-well, the Libelle suit.

And the F-22 is not any more maneuverable than the EF, the EF can sustain 9 G's for as long as there is fuel, the F-22 cannot. Furthermore the Libelle suit means that the EF pilot can stand higher forces than the F-22 pilot, again an advantage to the EF.

And since they're both equally fast and have the same service ceiling they're very close.

[mkloby]

Soren - what is your source for saying one cockpit interface is better than the other?

[Soren]

?? Do you want me to name a book for you or something mkloby ? These a re some very new a/c so I doubt any book covers this subject.

As to where I know this from, well I've talked to EF pilots for one and I've read allot about both a/c, and one thing which is always mentioned is the Eurofighter's state of the art pilots interface and cockpit ergonomics being the best in the world.

You should read this:
Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Cockpit
Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Flight Systems

And about stealth:
Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Structure

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

And the F-22 is not any more maneuverable than the EF, the EF can sustain 9 G's for as long as there is fuel, the F-22 cannot.

Can you be 100% sure of that?

[evangilder]

I really don't see that the Eurofighter is better...

Cockpit

External stores for weapons will not only take away any stealth ability, but also effect drag and overall performance.

"I've talked to EF pilots for one and I've read allot about both a/c, and one thing which is always mentioned is the Eurofighter's state of the art pilots interface and cockpit ergonomics being the best in the world."
And how may of those have also flown the F-22?

I have no doubt that the Typhoon is a very capable fighter in this age. But without the stealth ability and other technological advances, it's not a Raptor.

I would like to see a pilot sustain 9 Gs for as long as there is fuel...

[plan_D]

I don't think the F-22 stealth capability is as worthwhile as Lockheed like to make out. What is without doubt (in my mind) is the worth of the avionics system, most importantly the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) system. The F-22 is equipped with the AN/APG-77 AESA which gives the Raptor the ability to track more targets at a longer distance than the Typhoon as well as provide ECM for itself while being a lot harder to jam by the opponents ECMs. The Typhoon will not be equipped with AMSAR (Europes AESA) until 2010, at least.

The simple fact that the F-22 is equipped with AESA while the Typhoon still operates a mechanical radar system makes the F-22 a superior fighting machine.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

I didn't get any ideas buddy, the EF Typhoon has the best & most sophisticated pilots interface in the world, and its pilots wear the best G-suit in the world as-well, the Libelle suit.

And the F-22 is not any more maneuverable than the EF, the EF can sustain 9 G's for as long as there is fuel, the F-22 cannot. Furthermore the Libelle suit means that the EF pilot can stand higher forces than the F-22 pilot, again an advantage to the EF.

And since they're both equally fast and have the same service ceiling they're very close.

Soren, simply put you are wrong. Very wrong.

I have NO clue where you are getting your data from. You claim in other posts to want politic free discussions yet you bring up this information which is clearly flawed.

The F-22 as it is is capable of manuvers the Typhoon II could only dream of, and its electronics suite isn't nearly as capable or powerful. Every single thing mentioned in the Cockpit and Flight systems of the Typhoon II is also available "Out of the Box" on the F-22. You throw out random information that only says what the Typhoon II has in it, but absolutely no information on the capabilities.

If the Typhoon II was indeed even near the level of the F-22, why is the Typhoon II considered a 4.5 generation fighter and not the 5th generation the F-22 is currently sitting in?


1.) The F-22's Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans produce 35,000+ lb each, the Typhoon II's Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan produce 20,250+ lbs each. THe F-22 loaded weight is 55,352lbs, the Typhoon II's is 34,280lbs. 1.26 lbs of thrust per lb of airplane for the F-22 vs. 1.18 for the Typhoon II. Advantage: F-22

2.) F-22 max speed: Mach 2+ (true number is still top secret, but Metz, the Lockheed test pilot once claimed Mach 2.42) Typhoon II: Mach 2. F-22 supercruise speed Mach 1.7, Typhoon II supercruise speed Mach 1.2. The F-22's rate of climb is known to be significantly better than the F-15C (254 m/s) (but it is top secret still), the Typhoon II's rate of climb is about 315 m/s. Advantage: F-22

3.) F-22 wing loading: 66 lb/ft², Typhoon II wing loading: 63.7 lb/ft². Advantage: Typhoon II.

4.) F-22 has thrust vectoring, independent moving elevons, advanced digital fly-by-wire, In fact the Typhoon II sales information contains data on its manuverablity over most of the current generation 4.5 and 4.0 fighters, but no information at all mentioned about the F-22. If you were trying to sell the Typhoon II wouldn't you make that a point? I know I would especially when trying to sell my aircraft. PS: only the German Air Force and Austrian Air Force wear the Libelle. Everyone else wears the faggots (FCAGTs). The F-22 can do Herbst maneuver (or J-turn), Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit, none of which the Typhoon II is capable of. The F-22 is also known to be able to pull a minimum radius turn in less space than the Su-35 which was known to have one of the best minium turns in the books.

5.) Stealth. The F-22 has stealth capabilities above and beyond anything the Typhoon II has. The Typhoon II has a RCS under one square meter (best guesses say .8 ). The F-22 is known to have a better RCS than the F-117 which is about .025. The F-22 can carry a rather complete weapons suite internally. The Typhoon II cannot. As soon as you hang weapons on the Typhoon II the RCS only gets worse. Advantage: F-22

6.) Radar system. The F-22 is fitted with the AN/APG-77 AESA radar tied to the AN/ALR-94 passive system, which radar has an estimated range of 125-150 miles, though planned upgrades will allow a range of 250 miles, the system is so advanced that the F-22 can loiter outside the combat radius and serve as a type of AWACS system. Even the new CAESAR of the Typhoon II cant compete. It has about half the processing power and approximately 75% of the range. Advantage: F-22



I think that about covers it. If you wish to blather on, feel free to do so. My posting on this topic is done, as I've covered all the primary topics of the two jets in detail.

I've talked to (and had dinner with, in full mess dress) F-22 pilots from the 27th, and the 192d.

[Soren]

EM,

The F-22 isn't on the comparison list for the simple reason that no information on the F-22 has been made available for comparison. Now if the F-22 Raptor could easily beat the EF why then has the US been unwilling to stack it up against the EF Typhoon ?

And as for maneuverability, again the F-22 isn't any better, the EF can sustain a higher amount of G forces in a turn for a longer amount of time than any other fighter in the world, and one can in great part thank the wing design for that. Now the F-22 does have better low speed maneuverability by virtue of its thrust vectoring, infact I've heard it's the best in the world (Better than the Sukhoi series in service), but lets face it, the dogfights of today don't occur at low speed but at very high speeds. (And you're not going to pull a cobra maneuver at high speed)

And so regarding the cobra maneuver, well what good is it ? The now very old SAAB Draken J-35 can do this maneuver as-well, and so can the old MIG-29, so are they better dogfighters than the rest ? Not even close.

The only real advantage the F-22 seems to have is its stealth capability, cause the EF is just as fast and maneuverable.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Can you be 100% sure of that?

Can we be 100% sure about anything regarding both of these fighters FLYBOYJ ?

Now IF the F-22 was capable of this, then I'm sure it would've been advertized quite allot, just like the cobra maneuver capability. But that's just my opinion.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by Soren

The only real advantage the F-22 seems to have is its stealth capability, cause the EF is just as fast and maneuverable.

Soren, I don't want to pig-pile, but you don't really believe that statement, do you? The only advantage? EM gave a rather succinct list of advantages (not necessarily in the priority I would have chosen), but advantages nonetheless. And you think all the eggs are in the stealth basket? And you are arguing a high speed distance encounter with an F-22? How many AMRAAMs can you absorb before you suffer the luxury of detecting your adversary? The EF is a most capable airplane. No doubt about it. But the inherent ability of the F-22 to disseminate battlefield situation awareness to local assets is bar-none in BVR. Anyway, why no direct comparisons by USAF between F-22 and EF? Exactly, why? You are selling the EF on the world market. The US/Raptor is not. Why would the USAF engage in such silliness for no advantage gained? Its not a fear issue. Please. It's common sense for God's sake as to why those capabilities are kept close to the chest.

And from what little I have heard, even at close range, getting guns on a Raptor is not assured. Perhaps straight boresight with a Mk I eyeball, but that is a last resort in a radar directed cannon in a 3-D/high g fight. And now you are quickly making equivocations about a 5th generation AESA equipped fighter having suffered multiple failures in battlespace management to end up in a one-on-one Lufbery with an opponent seeking to more even the odds. Not smart battle doctrine.