F-22 vs....

[Soren]

Matt, tell me, how much do we actually know about these 5th generation systems, truthfully ?

It's no wonder that the US would want to keep tight about the F-22's software, but its maneuverability is obviously not such a big secret as for them to avoid public airshows and publicity mock up dogfights between it and the F-15 Eagle. So why is it that they haven't accepted pitting it up against the EF Typhoon ? The fighter of one of its Allies. If the F-22 is clearly superior then doing it and demonstrating a clear win would only mean gaining its reputation.

My opinion is that perhaps these two a/c are so close in terms of fighter vs fighter capabilities that the US can see no reason for risking having any of the a/c's weaknesses revealed?

The only thing we know the F-22 has a real advantage in is stealth, as besides being covered by RAM has its primary load out hidden away, minimizing both drag and radar signature.

Now overall I would agree that the F-22 is a slightly better fighter than the EF, but one also has to remember the price tag as the F-22 is one VERY expensive a/c.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Soren

?? Do you want me to name a book for you or something mkloby ? These a re some very new a/c so I doubt any book covers this subject.

Thanks for the links I'll definitely check them out. Soren, please don't be obnoxious because you have little fact to back up your opinions. I asked what source you had for claiming advantages like the EF's cockpit interface being superior to the F-22, not what book. One point is that much surrounding the F-22 is classified, and unless you hold a US Top Secret clearance - you don't truly know what the a/c is capable of. You can compare equipment and known items about the aircraft like EM did - and if I was relying upon air superiority to conduct assualt support, I'd want none other than the F-22.

As to where I know this from, well I've talked to EF pilots for one and I've read allot about both a/c, and one thing which is always mentioned is the Eurofighter's state of the art pilots interface and cockpit ergonomics being the best in the world.

You seem to have a hard time admitting superiority of anything American, and when you do you always make it conditional.

[/quote]

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

Can we be 100% sure about anything regarding both of these fighters FLYBOYJ ?

Now IF the F-22 was capable of this, then I'm sure it would've been advertized quite allot, just like the cobra maneuver capability. But that's just my opinion.

Well you're entitled to your opinion - I worked on the YF-22 before I left Lockheed - let's just say that Lockheed (and the USAF) have always sprung "surprises" on the public with regards to aircraft and capability. I need not say more...

Both aircraft are very capable but I'm in agreement with Plan D about the radar - I've seen both mechanical and AESA radars and that alone is a big difference.

It's funny - I remember similar arguments when the F-15 and Tornado first came out...

[plan_D]

The Tornado was never comparable to the F-15 as a fighter, nor as a ground-attack platform until the introduction of the GR.4. In fact, the Tornado was an over-priced piece of sh*t !

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Tornado was never comparable to the F-15 as a fighter, nor as a ground-attack platform until the introduction of the GR.4. In fact, the Tornado was an over-priced piece of sh*t !

My point....

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

EM,


And as for maneuverability, again the F-22 isn't any better, the EF can sustain a higher amount of G forces in a turn for a longer amount of time than any other fighter in the world, and one can in great part thank the wing design for that. Now the F-22 does have better low speed maneuverability by virtue of its thrust vectoring, infact I've heard it's the best in the world (Better than the Sukhoi series in service), but lets face it, the dogfights of today don't occur at low speed but at very high speeds. (And you're not going to pull a cobra maneuver at high speed)

Wrong. The F-22 can do Herbst maneuver (or J-turn), Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit, none of which the Typhoon II is capable of. The F-22 has a better minimum radius turn at all speeds over the Typhoon II. Blather on all you want about sustaining a higher G turn, but you have no proof that the F-22 isn't capable of doing the same thing. The F-22 can out manuver the Typhoon II at all speeds.

And so regarding the cobra maneuver, well what good is it ? The now very old SAAB Draken J-35 can do this maneuver as-well, and so can the old MIG-29, so are they better dogfighters than the rest ? Not even close.

The MiG-29 CANNOT do the Pugachev's Cobra unless it starts at a 30 degree entry angle. It still does not change the fact that the Typhoon II cannot do the manuver. Period.

The only real advantage the F-22 seems to have is its stealth capability, cause the EF is just as fast and maneuverable.

No, the F-22 is faster by .42 mach at top speed, faster by .5 mach in supercruise. That is a considerable number and far from you claim that the Typhoon II is just as fast. If you really think .42 mach and .5 mach are "just as fast" you really need to do some more work on exactly what "fast" is. I've already touched on all your so called claims about manuverability.

As for costs, the Typhoon II flyaway cost per plane is currently 122.5 mil in 2007 dollars. The F-22 is $137.5 million per plane in 2008 dollars. Considering the capabilities the F-22 has over the Typhoon II in just about every category its money well spent.

[Matt308]

Better manueverability makes a better airplane. Tell that to Richard Bong. It's a specious argument anyway. The superiority of an airplane is the sum of its capabilities (technical, training, maintenence). With 3 times the detection range of adversaries with AESA, ability to counter air-to-air missiles in flight (yeah I wrote that right), orders of magnitude more likely to be undetected, ability to share airspace order of battle with nearby assets, unmatched supercruise and a fly away cost that is no longer as 'outrageous' due to the declining dollar, amounts to a platform that is leaps and bounds ahead of anything in the air (unclassified).

[Matt308]

And I still say that Japan will eventually get some. And Australia has stated a real interest now that they have given the classified AESA capabilities of the F/A-18F to those who hold the purse strings.

[Evil_Merlin]

I say Japan, Saudi Arabia and possibly Israel all end up getting the F-22 eventually. I know that England and Australia are rather hot for the F-35 currently, but that remains to be seen once they reach operational status.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree EM, mkloby and Matt here. I do not see any evidence that proves that the Typhoon is superior to the F-22.

Soren please post facts that will prove your point. You have not posted a single one yet. You post facts about the EF but you have not posted anything saying that the F-22 is inferior to the Typhoon. It is all your opinion and based off the fact that you dont like anything that is American.

Basically I am saying put up the facts or give up.

[Marcel]

Just a thought. The Raptor is of course a brilliant plane, with vector thrust, stealth, advanced weapons and everything and I doubt any a/c in the world can be totally superior. But what use will it have in the wars of today? Today's wars seem to be more like anti guerilla wars than the wars of the past. Is having a technical brilliant, sophisticated and expensive a/c not something of the past? It looks like overkill to me. It'll probably never has to fight it's (almost) equals.
Wouldn't it have been much better to use these billions of dollars to build less sophisticated, but very useful ground attack a/c in much higher numbers, which by the numbers and costs makes you much more flexible in these kind of wars with probably the same punch as the Raptor.

[Matt308]

One word...

China

[mkloby]

Marcel - you have a good point. Matt puts it succinctly as to the need for an air superiority fighter. There is a need for it, as to have nothing for that role would leave you vulnerable. However, many think that the F-35 would have been a much better return on investment due to the joint nature of the program. Interestingly, there was a push in the Air Force to look into an attack variant of the T-6, but that ended up dead I believe.

[Matt308]

Is the US the only nation that openly is concerned about the Chinese? And they are our leading trade partner, so a direct confrontation is unlikely, but another Vietnam where ideals are contested with technology is highly likely based upon historical precedent. Europe has no interest there, huh?

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Matt308

Is the US the only nation that openly is concerned about the Chinese? And they are our leading trade partner, so a direct confrontation is unlikely, but another Vietnam where ideals are contested with technology is highly likely based upon historical precedent. Europe has no interest there, huh?

The chinese shure as hell are willing to do whatever it takes to make China the greatest country on the planet. They have already proved they don't much care what the US thinks. Take a look at all the cyber attacks against the US they are already doing.

China should scare the hell outta the US military and govenment.