F-22 vs....

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

The question is, can it hold 9 G's indefinately as the Typhoon can ??

There's nothing indicating that it won't and everything indicating that it can!

SoD - good article. Here's a few quotes...

"The Raptor is simple: You pull on the stick and you get 9 Gs almost instantly. Little inputs on stick and the throttle give you large outputs. Its responsiveness and maneuverability over anything else airborne is instantly apparent.”

"Air Force planners expect that the Raptor will spend little time dogfighting; “supercruise and stealth are so much more important,” Cabral says. In a Raptor, a visual encounter should take place only “because you choose it,” he says, “and you arrive in the merge with complete surprise.”

"The Raptor’s radar range is classified, but Stapleton says he has “seen targets beyond 320 miles.”

“The F-15 has been around for 30 years and its tactics have evolved,” he says. “But we don’t have a lot of Raptor data points yet—we’re still building them. It’s a big gray area. Honestly, we don’t know what we don’t know.”

Soren, we seen two referances about 9g turns - I'm sure we're going to see a real life comparison between the two in a mock arena providing they even get close enough (before the F-22 shoots down the Typhoon) to prove this sustained 9g turn you're so hung up on.

[Soren]

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

Keep moving them goal posts Soren. Keep ignoring the links we have been posting too.

[Soren]

Adler,

I've re-read all my posts and no'where did I ever claim that the EF was superior to the F-22, ever! All I've said is that they're the close.

Also if you cared to read my posts before judging me you'd see that I said that the F-22 overall is a better fighter, and that the EF is the closest to it out there.

[Evil_Merlin]

Oh Soren by the way, here is another quote from a F-22 pilot

"Look, BFM in the Raptor is boring.’ And it was true. The plane is so powerful and responsive, it can turn so tight and sustain such high Gs and angles of attack, that I can fly to the center of his turn circle and keep my nose and weapon on him all day. Whatever he tries to do, I can just point my airplane.

“When I was flying defensive BFM, he simply couldn’t enter into my turn circle. Even if he flies his weapon to the best of its capabilities and I make errors, he cannot win. It’s almost too easy.”

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

No what you said was, and I quote

"The only a/c I see as a match for the F-22 is the Eurofighter Typhoon."


you were claiming the F-22 and Typhoon II are equal. As that is exactly what match means. The Typhoon II is NOT a match for the F-22. The F-22 exceeds the capabilities of the Typhoon II in nearly every category and many of them by very large margins.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

Keep moving them goal posts Soren. Keep ignoring the links we have been posting too.

Not moving any posts or ignoring any links, I've read them all and NONE state that the F-22 can sustain 9 G's indefinately, none.

Furthermore, and as already stated, the EF pilots benefit from the Libelle suit which means its pilots can pull more G's for a longer period of time without blacking out.

Autoflug Libelle GmbH

[Evil_Merlin]

The Typhoon II still cannot out manuver the F-22.

Lemme know when the Typhoon II can do a Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra or the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's.

[Soren]

In good ol' English to say something is a match for something else just means it's a tough deal to be up against or it's no piece of cake. (Remember I didn't say "A match to" I said "A match for"

Also I later said that overall the F-22 is better, so that should've ruled out any confusion!

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

The Typhoon II still cannot out manuver the F-22.

There's a big possibility it can..

Lemme know when the Typhoon II can do a Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra or the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's.

Those maneuvers are low speed maneuvers for crying out loud! The dogfight (If there's ever going to be one) isn't going to be at low speed!

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

Oh now we're going to move to the suit? The USAF evaluated the Libelle in 2000 at Edwards and may eventually use it as well. Here's some other info...

http://www.acc.af.mil/shared/media/d...070413-039.wmv

Code One Magazine Fourth Quarter 2004: The Well-Dressed Raptor Pilot

For the most part the USAF is not advertising information about the suit to be used on the F-22

ATAGS
Next Merrell dons the CSU-23/P Advanced Technology Anti-G Suit, or ATAGS. Like the Combat Edge vest, ATAGS (currently only worn by F/A-22 pilots) provides increased protection from the effects of prolonged high-g environments. As a stand-alone garment, ATAGS provides a sixty percent increase in aircrew endurance. Combined with Combat Edge, it increases aircrew endurance by 350 percent over the current g-suit.


From what I understand the Libelle (or something similar) has been used by several European countries for a few years now and although they seem state of the art I see no real advantage over what is being used in the F-22 if we're now going from comparing the aircraft to support equipment. If the USAF decided to adoubt the Libelle there goes the "sustained 9g argument," but then again what good is the g suit going to be when you're shot down by something you can't see?

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

The Typhoon II still cannot out manuver the F-22.

Lemme know when the Typhoon II can do a Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra or the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's.

Sorry, have to agree with Soren here. If you want to show the Raptor is better then the EF, you'll have to compare weapon systems, avionics etc. Stealth is IMO the main advantage for the Raptor over the EF. Those manoeuvres can be useful in very distinct occasions, but isn't an overall advantage in today's areal warfare.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Marcel

Sorry, have to agree with Soren here. If you want to show the Raptor is better then the EF, you'll have to compare weapon systems, avionics etc. Stealth is IMO the main advantage for the Raptor over the EF. Those manoeuvres can be useful in very distinct occasions, but isn't an overall advantage in today's areal warfare.

I already did that pages ago.


Soren claimed the Typhoon II was more manuverable than the F-22. It isn't. I never said they were useful in combat but they DO show the manuverability of the aircraft.

Stealth, high speed supercruise, high manuverablility, superior radar and avionics all favour the F-22 by huge margins over the Typhoon II.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

Those maneuvers are low speed maneuvers for crying out loud! The dogfight (If there's ever going to be one) isn't going to be at low speed!

Then the game is over even before it started for the Typhoon II. The F-22's far superior radar and detection system would have picked up the Typhoon II before they even knew the F-22 was out there.


You keep changing the goal posts Soren, and you still keep looking like the fool.

[lesofprimus]

This is getting old.... And repetitive....

When the TiffyII and the Raptor go head to head at Red Flag, the truth shall set us all free....

My money is on the Raptor, in every catagory...