F-22 Vs. Su-37

evangilder · 05-29-2008, 09:26 AM

Ah, ok. Stealth technology certainly gives a competitive edge in air combat, at least for now.

Matt308 · 05-29-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog

I agree - but the conversation led from stealth on F-22 back to why not on F15/16/18.. and I was illustrating that 'stealth' concept per se came from an obscure paper on an entirely different subject about the time the 15 and 16 were well along in the design phase.
.

I wouldn't put all my "stealth" eggs in one basket. While I acknowledge the reference, the Russians did not have a monopoly on stealth technology nor R&D activity in its support. In fact, the CIA published a paper on "anti-radar technology" back in the late '50s (1956-1957?). These technical objectives served as the low observable basis for the A-12 (RS-71) development.

solo · 05-29-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangilder

A couple of things. First, the F-117 was never a fighter. It didn't carry guns and was used operationally as an attack aircraft. It should have really been called the A-117, but I digress...

How are the F-22 and F-35 not aerodynamic??? Have you actually seen these aircraft fly?

I agree that we should call it A-117 rather than F-117.

(By the way F-117 doesn't seem to have "Fighter" definition.)

Kruska · 05-30-2008, 05:54 AM

The F-22 is certainly a very good aircraft - and a huge $$$ maker for Lookheed Martin, but an upgraded RASIGMA2 Tornado from the GAF would just be as good.

Right now Germany and partially some European NATO members are going into a different direction of developing air combat surviability then the US - mostly due to money constrains. But the result is the same at far lesser costs.

Regards
Kruska

Matt308 · 05-30-2008, 08:18 PM

More justification, Kruska. You piqued our interest.

And what the hell is a RASIGMA2 Tornado?? You playin' video games again?

Kruska · 05-31-2008, 03:18 AM

Hello Matt 308,

No, no video games (actually I don't play any) it's the real thing I am interested and involved in.

Quote from the thread - Russia lost the quantity war.

On the public forum I wouldn't be able to tell you much but maybe you want to refer to: http://www.aero-microwave.com/Files/...asurements.pdf click the second (common base name) and then the 1st article 2005.

Fritzel and Steiner I know quite well, for more info try EADS and then search for RaSigma, but it will be very difficult/impossible to find details. If you put RaSigma5 and a Cheetah together you would easily have the worlds best fighter/fighterbomber - forget the F-22 just good looks and a lot of propaganda - it wouldn't stand a chance - even being a very good aircraft.

The US, Russia and China are exteeeemly interested in this.

If you google RaSigma, it is surprising to see all the Chinese pages refering to it.

Regards
Kruska

evangilder · 05-31-2008, 07:51 AM

F-22 looks good and propaganda?!?! Are you shitting me? You obviously have never seen the demo live. You can't tell me with a straight face that any Tornado is as good or better than the F-22.

FLYBOYJ · 05-31-2008, 09:23 AM

I could remember the same arguments used against the F-15 with the MiG-29 years ago..

Matt308 · 05-31-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruska

On the public forum I wouldn't be able to tell you much but maybe you want to refer to: http://www.aero-microwave.com/Files/...asurements.pdf click the second (common base name) and then the 1st article 2005.

Fritzel and Steiner I know quite well, for more info try EADS and then search for RaSigma, but it will be very difficult/impossible to find details. If you put RaSigma5 and a Cheetah together you would easily have the worlds best fighter/fighterbomber - forget the F-22 just good looks and a lot of propaganda - it wouldn't stand a chance - even being a very good aircraft.

The US, Russia and China are exteeeemly interested in this.

If you google RaSigma, it is surprising to see all the Chinese pages refering to it.

Regards
Kruska

It's an RCS range in Europe. So?

Kruska you come across as the engineering equivalent of a "name dropper". One who desires worship based solely upon purporting to know austere acronyms, work black projects and naming technical designers.

Until you post something with some actual technical statements, I'll relegate you to my BS bin.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-31-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruska

The F-22 is certainly a very good aircraft - and a huge $$$ maker for Lookheed Martin, but an upgraded RASIGMA2 Tornado from the GAF would just be as good.

(I could not post anything meaningful, because I could not stop laughing...)

Kruska · 06-01-2008, 03:18 AM

Hello D.A.I.G.

Laughing is sometimes the reaction by those who do not know much or can't face the facts due to non existing knowledge.

Who cares about how many G's an F-22 can handle, how many 360 degree turns it can do at a 60 degree angle, or what common theoretical stealth RCS it has? or its advanced electronical systems -which radiate as undefined hotspots or counteracts on its own electronics.

A RaSigma upgraded a/c simple see's the opponent first, it simply increases the chances to ident for "first look - first shoot", and reduces/eliminates its own hotspots.

How does the US aircraft industry places its antennas on a/c's? according to what basic knowledge and in practical application? how do they verify its correct positioning and the RCS of an a/c?, - which BTW changes constantly during operation -(some less educated peolpe on this topic actually believe that the RCS remains a constant figure) How do they ID an a/c without IDF?, how do they configure a hologram on a/c's? and why should one hologram an a/c?

If you should know the answers, dont hesitate to tell me, and we can have a good discussion instead of laughing at things we simply don't know.

Regards
Kruska

Kruska · 06-01-2008, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangilder

F-22 looks good and propaganda?!?! Are you shitting me? You obviously have never seen the demo live. You can't tell me with a straight face that any Tornado is as good or better than the F-22.

Hello evangilder,

I know the F-22 is American, so don't take it too personal

Not "any" Tornado would be as good (I never stated better), but an uprated Tornado via a RaSigma would be as good, simply because its electronical capability and RCS matches the capability of the F-22due to the antenna positioning it would outperform a present F-22 in regards to ECM and spotting range of non friendlies.

My forwardings are not about placing an F-22 and a Tornado against each other (where the F-22 would have its advantages) but on the effectivness of the aircrafts in their mission role in relation to $$. Obviously a F-22 can't compete with a Tornado on weapon load for ground attack, or naval missions. As an interceptor the RaS..Tornado could perform just as well as the F-22 in respect to other countries aircrafts and ground radar capabilities. The F-22 is IMO just overdoing the topic and who knows what radar technology is available in 5-10 years that might or will make the stealth ability useless. Looking at the "washing" - "showering" of the F-22 due to its sensible surface, I would doubt the servicability of this a/c in "less developed" or harsh environments.

Radar technology is far faster developing (mostly due to stealth) then before. So indeed comparing, placing a F-22 and a RaSigma enhanced Eurofighter against each other I wouldn'd be surprised to find the Eurofighter as the overall better aircraft.

Since we still depend on US technology for an AIM, the US would still have the overall edge

but from a/c to a/c ability on missions these RaSigma Tornados would indeed be a match for a F-22.

BTW all the ex GAF F-4's were "repositioned" before being handed over to Greece, and the Greek AF is indeed very happy about these "extremly electronically and RCS upgraded" a/c's.

Regards
Kruska

evangilder · 06-01-2008, 05:28 AM

Uh huh... I really don't think you know the capabilities of the F-22 and are only speculating based on previous US aircraft and how they were in the past. There is a lot of info on the F-22 that is not public knowledge, so for you to categorically claim that a Tornado would be a "match" or better than an F-22 is pure conjecture.

My nationality and the fact that the F-22 is made in America has nothing to do with it. You have not seen the F-22 in action and you simply do not have all the available information to make a claim like that, especially that the F-22 is only "good looks and propaganda".

This has gotten WAY off topic anyway, which is F-22 versus Su-37.

Kruska · 06-01-2008, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangilder

Uh huh... I really don't think you know the capabilities of the F-22 and are only speculating based on previous US aircraft and how they were in the past. There is a lot of info on the F-22 that is not public knowledge, so for you to categorically claim that a Tornado would be a "match" or better than an F-22 is pure conjecture.

My nationality and the fact that the F-22 is made in America has nothing to do with it. You have not seen the F-22 in action and you simply do not have all the available information to make a claim like that, especially that the F-22 is only "good looks and propaganda".

This has gotten WAY off topic anyway, which is F-22 versus Su-37.

As I stated before, I never said or wrote better. The public sources for the F-22 are open to anyone - the classified ones you and me wouldn't know, just as you wouldn't know about RaSigma in contra to me. BTW any aircraft needs good looks and propaganda right?

But you are correct on the being of topic for this thread.

Regards
Kruska

Kruska · 06-01-2008, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I could remember the same arguments used against the F-15 with the MiG-29 years ago..

Hello FLYBOY,

why should someone compare a F-15 with a MiG29, I think that comparrison doesn't stick - it should be a Su27/30 contra F-15.

Regards
Kruska