F-35 Lightning II completes first flight

[Glider]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

it'll be interesting to see the F-22 against the F-35, have the Americans just wasted money on the F-22 perhaps?

Dare I say, or just buy Typhoons instead.

[Matt308]

And settle for second best? Blasphemy.

Estimated costs for each with comparison to F-16

$30M F-16
$50M F-35
$58M Typhoon

[Glider]

Only $8m more per plane, bargin. How much do we reckon for the F22.

[mkloby]

F-22 estimated 85 million per A/C, but the final cost is very dependent on the production run.

[comiso90]

Now all we need is an adversary worthy of the F-22 or F-35.

I’m sure it’s too technologically sensitive to export for the next decade but I'd like to see China's reaction if Taiwan were allowed to purchased a handful.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The only think the Typhoon really lacks in is the stealth capability.

Typhoon is a great aircraft but the F-22 is still going to be the best in the air.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The only think the Typhoon really lacks in is the stealth capability.

Typhoon is a great aircraft but the F-22 is still going to be the best in the air.

Whilst I agree, I still think it would be interesting to see how the two were matched in a (albeit fake) combat scenario.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think that would be interesting. The F-22 would come out on top because of its greater maneuverability due to the thrust vectoring.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I think that would be interesting. The F-22 would come out on top because of its greater maneuverability due to the thrust vectoring.

Yep, I think that would be the case as well although it would be a good fight.

[Glider]

Their is little doubt that its F22 before the Typhoon but when you consider how few F22's are likely to be built, the F35 vs Typhoon is likely to be the important matchup.
In a BVR scenario the F22 will I believe be unmatched for quite a time, the question is though, how often do the rules of engagement allow BVR. I do not know but I would be suprised if this was common.

[Matt308]

You guys are focusing ENTIRELY to much upon the physical capabilities. The F-22's lethality is less connected to its flight performance and MUCH more connected to its stealth, weapon systems, guidance capability, detection capability and comm ability to share nav position state, intention, ability, targets and surveillance. This similar capability is inherent in the F-35. And for $8m for F-35, you bet I'd want it. With F-22 you got the best of both worlds.

I don't knock the Typhoon, but it is not the generation of either US aircraft. But I hope later Tranches (II and III) bring it up to speed.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Glider

Their is little doubt that its F22 before the Typhoon but when you consider how few F22's are likely to be built, the F35 vs Typhoon is likely to be the important matchup.
In a BVR scenario the F22 will I believe be unmatched for quite a time, the question is though, how often do the rules of engagement allow BVR. I do not know but I would be suprised if this was common.

I believe the USAF will still be acquiring upwards of 200+ F-22s.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Matt308

You guys are focusing ENTIRELY to much upon the physical capabilities. The F-22's lethality is less connected to its flight performance and MUCH more connected to its stealth, weapon systems, guidance capability, detection capability and comm ability to share nav position state, intention, ability, targets and surveillance. This similar capability is inherent in the F-35. And for $8m for F-35, you bet I'd want it. With F-22 you got the best of both worlds.

I don't knock the Typhoon, but it is not the generation of either US aircraft. But I hope later Tranches (II and III) bring it up to speed.

Not quite and that is why I brought up the issue of BVR rules in the terms of engagement. Where BVR is allowed then the F22 is head and shoulders above the rest.
Earlier in the thread I mentioned that in excercises the F22 had scored 144 kills to zero, but its worth mentioning that 140 of those were in a BVR situation.

The Typhoon also has the weapon systems, guidance capability, detection capability and comm ability to share nav position state, intention, ability, targets and surveillance which will even things up to some degree. Indeed the Grippen has impressive abilities in this area so it isn't a new technology for Europe.

Time will tell as to how well the Typhoon and F35 square off against each other, because right now we don't know.

Personally I hope that the Typhoon is an advance over the F35 as the UK are buying both. If the Typhoon isn't an improvement then we have wasted a shedload of money on infrastructure costs alone to cater for both types of aircraft.

[Matt308]

Interesting to read about those Alaska exercises that you are quoting the 144 kills from. Further reading indicates that the F-22s were assuming a top cover role that allowed them to guide and direct firing of F-15s, F-16s and F-18s against opposing forces. F-22 capabilities would allow information exchange to ensure that lock-ons were not overlapping to maximize ordinance on aircraft that could not even see the threat. The AESA radar, F-22 stealth, and performance is supposedly allowing a 150mi greater engagement range over F-15s and simulated opposition. The supercruise and high altitude performance allowed F-22s to freely roam at 65,000ft at mach 1.6 for BVR and to engage other targets at will by nosing over, accelerating and making use of IR missiles. Two kills were acquire in this manner and a third with guns. While the thrust to weight ratio is only about 1 versus 1.2 for F-15, Eagle drivers were complimenting the F-22 for its thrust vectoring ability and acceleration in full-burner. They further noted that F-22 maneuvering and performance is such that existing counter maneuvers need to be rethought to account for the F-22 unique performance. The conclusion being that while the F-22 was not developed with close in dogfighting capabilities as its primary strength, it is still quite a formidable foe...if you survive the BVR. As I recall. There was only 16 F-22s used in the whole exercise of which only 8 were engaged at any one time.

One of the most telling comments of those who witnessed the engagements was the "eery silence" of the F-22 attacks and coordation with other air assets. All this coordination and target parameter exchange occurring using machine-to-machine data link.

144 kills. I'd say that's not too bad.

[Glider]

Thaks for the additional info its a lot more detailed than I had. There is no doubt that with the F22 and the F35, the USA have worthy replacements for the F15/F16 combination, that has served it so well over the last 25-30 years.