FMA IA-58 Pucara COIN aircraft.

[Glider]

A Pucara from Groupo 3 shot down a Scout on the 28th May killing the pilot Lt Nunn.
Just an observation on some comments made earlier. If the Argentine forces had organised themselves properly, there is no reason why they should have lost the air battle over the Falklands. It was to our benefit that they didn't.

[plan_D]

Okay, I was thinking about the Sea Harriers. The Argentine Air Force certainly could have won with the extreme favourable odds in air power but they just didn't! Plus the fact, our ground forces were far, far, far superior to the Argentine conscripts.

A lot of their aircraft were ended on the ground. Plus, our Royal Navy pilots were just better.

[CharlesBronson]

Just an observation on some comments made earlier. If the Argentine forces had organised themselves properly, there is no reason why they should have lost the air battle over the Falklands. It was to our benefit that they didn't.

How my post about the AT-63 degenerated in this...?

Aniway I think that organizated or not the Argentine Air Force gave too much advantage in terms of technology and that was the cause of the lack of sucess in achieve the air superiority.

The more modern plane of the AAF in 1982 was the IAI Nesher, a Israeli made Mirage V with no air-to-air radar. The MIIIEA had radar but fron the 60s.



The avionics in the A-4Ps was awful, the long range operation that it had to carry out, mauled his warload and performances.

In the Armada the thing was little better with the Dassault Super Etendar, but the very limited amount of Exocet missiles the only modern weapon in the argentine inventory, also limited his effect on war.



And off course the formidable AIM-9L was a very nasty surprize for every argentine aviators.

[Nonskimmer]

Pardon me, for my knowledge of the Argentine military is extremely spotty, but it was my understanding that the Argentine pilots were skilled enough, and that it was really an organizational problem that hampered them more than anything. Their equipment wasn't exactly garbage either.
Believe me, I'm following this thread with interest and hoping to learn a bit.

Beautiful pictures by the way! Good info too.

[plan_D]

Their equipment was superior to what the Royal Navy could produce; 20 Sea Harriers. The pilots were good but not superior to Royal Navy pilots, who are some of the best in the world.

A complete lack of tactical ability let the entire Argentine attempt down. I don't think they were prepared for a British counter-attack and especially not one organised that quickly.

The AAF also lost a lot of it's aircraft on the ground to British SF. The aircraft that were operational often had to be at the extent of their range against the Royal Navy, as they were operating from Argentina.

The AAF also had the goliath task of stopping the British landing anything ashore. Which, I must say, was almost impossible especially since MI6 had bought up all the Exorcet missiles from the French. Once the British forces were ashore it was only a matter of time before defeat came upon the Argentines, the AAF could not save them.

[Glider]

Their is no doubt that the AAF pilots were brave but not as well trained as the Harrier Pilots or that the Harrier was the better fighter. Obviously the British were not allowed to strike at the bases in Argentina but we did destroy a lot if not most of the planes based in the Falklands. These tended to be the Pucara and light strike/trainer jets.

The keys mistakes the AAF made were
a) not extending the runway on the Falklands to take faster jets to use as forward bases or refueling points
b) Not building protective bunkers with overhead protection for the planes on the island
c) Not launching large raids to target the Harriers. Their was never a concerted attempt to target the Harriers.
d) The Skyhawks never made any attempt to cover each other when under attack, their only tactic was to run which doesn't work if your in the slower plane. This is part of the training observation.
e) They didn't fuse their bombs properly, a simple mistake that saved the task force from a lot more damage.

It should be remembered that we only had 20 Harriers, their were no spares or replacements even in the UK. The AAF would have lost more Mirages than we Harriers but the loss of three or four Harriers would have had a major effect on ability of the RN to defend itself.

[CharlesBronson]

Their equipment was superior to what the Royal Navy could produce

Superior in cuantity not quality. The AIM-9L for example.

Their is no doubt that the AAF pilots were brave but not as well trained as the Harrier Pilots or that the Harrier was the better fighter.

And again the problem wasnt training but equipment, just put an argentine pilot in a Mirage 2000 or a F-15 and you see what I am talking about.

It should be remembered that we only had 20 Harriers

Wich had the support of the powerful SAM sistems carried by the U.K navy near the islands. The sea-to-air misiles killed more argentine planes than the FRS-1s.

[plan_D]

That is why I did mention that we only had twenty Sea Harriers, quantity can have it's own quality.

The problem of the AAF was strategy. Plus the fact, Royal Navy pilots were better than AAF pilots. On the first day alone 23 AAF aircraft were lost against Royal Navy Sea Harriers, while another 17 were lost to ground fire.

[Glider]

CB I don't know if you can stil get it but I stongly recommend Air War South Atlantic by Jeffry Ethell and Alfred Price. It caused a stir when it came out in the UK as it debunked a lot of the claims made by some of the armed forces (mainly Rapier Claims) and is recognised as being well reasearched and neutral.
I will need some time to collate the claims but more were shot down by the Harriers than SAMs.
The breakdown with details should be ready tomorrow evening if that OK.

The heaviest losses occurred on the 21st May when 15 Argentine planes and helicopters were destroyed from all causes including some helicopters destroyed on the ground.

Till tomorrow

[CharlesBronson]

It was no my intention start a discussion about the 1982 conflict,...but It seems that is for someones interest

Argentine losses:

Saturday 3rd April

[a1] - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down at Grytviken, South Georgia by Royal Marine small arms fire.

Saturday 1st May

[a2, a3, a4] - One Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 destroyed and two more damaged and not repaired at Goose Green by CBU's dropped in attack by No.800 Sea Harriers flown by Lt Cmdr Frederiksen, Lt Hale and Lt McHarg RN (8.25 am). Lt Jukic killed in the destroyed aircraft.

[a5] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 shot down north of West Falkland by Flt Lt Barton RAF in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.10 pm). Lt Perona ejects safely.

[a6] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 damaged in same incident north of West Falkland by Lt Thomas RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder. Then shot down over Stanley by own AA defences (4.15 pm). and Capt Cuerva killed

[a7] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over East Falkland by Flt Lt Penfold RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.40 pm). Lt Ardiles killed.

[a8] - Canberra B.62 of FAA Grupo 2 shot down north of Falklands by Lt Curtiss RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (5.45 pm). Lt Ibanez and Gonzalez eject but are not rescued.

Sunday 2nd May

[a9] - Lynx HAS.23 of CANA 1 Esc embarked on ARA Santisima Trinidad lost in flying accident probably to north of Falklands.

[a10] - Alouette III of CANA 1 Esc lost on board ARA General Belgrano when she is torpedoed and sunk to south west of Falklands.

Monday 3rd May

[a11] - Aermacchi MB-339A of CANA 1 Esc crashes into ground near Stanley approaching airfield in bad weather (4.00 pm). Lt Benitez killed.

[a12] - Skyvan of PNA damaged by naval gunfire at Stanley on the night of 3rd/4th and not repaired.



Sunday 9th May

[a13, a14] - Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 lost. Possibly damaged by Sea Darts from HMS Coventry or crashed in bad weather, with one aircraft found on South Jason Island. Lt Casco and Lt Farias killed.

[a15] - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (4.10 pm). Crew of three lost.

Wednesday 12th May

[a16, a17, a18] - Two A-4B Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 5 shot down off Stanley by Sea Wolf fired by HMS Brilliant and third aircraft hits sea trying to evade missile (1.45 pm). All three pilots, Lt Bustos, Lt Ibarlucea and Lt Nivoli killed.

[a19] - A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over Goose Green by own AA fire (2.25 pm). Lt Gavazzi killed.

Saturday 15th May

[a20-a25] - Six Pucaras of FAA Grupo 3; [a26-a29] - Four T-34C Mentors of CANA 4 Esc; [a30] - Skyvan of PNA, all destroyed or put out of action at Pebble Island in raid by D Sqdn SAS (early morning)

Friday 21st May

[a31] - Chinook CH-47C of CAB 601 destroyed on ground near Mount Kent by Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3 using 30mm cannon (8.00 am).

[a32] - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 badly damaged on ground near Mount Kent in same attack by Sqdn Ldr Pook and Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3's using 30mm cannon (8.00 am). Destroyed on 26th in same position by Sqdn Ldr Pook using CBU's.

[a33] - Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 shot down over Sussex Mountains by Stinger SAM fired by D Sqdn SAS (10.00 am). Capt Benitz ejects safely.

[a34] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down near Fanning Head by Sea Cat fired by HMS Argonaut or Plymouth, or more likely Sea Wolf from HMS Broadsword (10.30 am). Lt Bean killed.

[a35] - Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 shot down near Darwin by Cmdr Ward RN in one of three Sea Harriers of No.801 NAS using 30mm cannon (12.10 pm). Major Tomba ejects.

[a36, a37] - Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 shot down near Chartres, West Falkland by Lt Cmdr Blissett and Lt Cmdr Thomas RN in No.800 Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (1.05 pm). Lt Lopez and Lt Manzotti killed.

[a38] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down near Teal River Inlet, West Falkland by Lt Cmdr Frederiksen RN in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (2.35 pm). Lt Luna ejects.

[a39, a40, a41] - Two Dagger A's of FAA Grupo 6 shot down north of Port Howard, West Falkland by Lt Thomas and a third by Cmdr Ward RN in No.801 Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (2.50 pm). Maj Piuma, Capt Donaldille and Lt Senn all eject.

[a42] - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc shot down near Swan Island in Falkland Sound by Lt Morell RN in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (3.12 pm). Lt Cmdr Philippi ejects.

[a43] - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc also shot down near Swan Island in Falkland Sound in same incident by Flt Lt Leeming RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using 30mm cannon (3.12 pm). Lt Marquez is killed.

[a44] - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc damaged over Falkland Sound by small arms fire from HMS Ardent and again in same incident as above by Lt Morrell using 30mm cannon. Unable to land at Stanley with undercarriage problems and Lt Arca ejects (3.30 pm).

Sunday 23rd May

[a45] - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 flies into ground near Shag Cove House, West Falkland attempting to evade Flt Lt Morgan RAF in No.800 NAS Sea Harrier (10.30 am). All crew escape.

[a46] - Agusta A-109A of CAB 601 in same incident near Shag Cove House, West Falkland destroyed on ground by Flt Lt Morgan and Flt Lt Leeming RAF in No.800 NAS Sea Harriers using 30mm cannon (10.30 am).

[a47] - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 also in same incident near Shag Cove House, West Falkland damaged on ground by Flt Lt Morgan with 30mm cannon (10.30 am). Then believed shortly destroyed by Lt Cmdr Gedge and Lt Cmdr Braithwaite RN in No.801 Sea Harriers with more cannon fire.

[a48] - A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over San Carlos Water by unknown SAM (1.50 pm). Claims that day include "Broadsword" Sea Wolf, "Antelope" Sea Cat, and land-based Rapiers and Blowpipe. Lt Guadagnini killed.

[a49] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over Pebble Island by Lt Hale RN in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.00 pm). Lt Volponi killed.

Monday 24th May

[a50, a51, a52] - Two Dagger A's of FAA Grupo 6 shot down north of Pebble Island by Lt Cmdr Auld and a third by Lt D Smith in No.800 Sea Harriers using Sidewinder (11.15 am). Maj Puga and Capt Diaz eject, but Lt Castillo killed.

[a53] - A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 damaged over San Carlos Water by ship and ground-based air defences and crashes into King George Bay, West Falkland on flight home (1.30 pm). Claims that day include "Argonaut" and "Fearless" Sea Cat, and Rapier and Blowpipe SAM's. Lt Bono lost.

Tuesday 25th May

[a54] - A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 shot down north of Pebble Island by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (9.30 am). Lt Palaver killed.

[a55] - A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 destroyed over San Carlos Water by a variety of weapons, claims including small arms fire, "Yarmouth" Sea Cat, and Rapier and Blowpipe SAM's (12.30 pm). Lt Lucero ejects.

[a56] - A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 damaged over San Carlos Water in same attack, and then brought down north east of Pebble Island by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (12.45 am). Lt Garcia killed.

Thursday 27th May

[a57] - A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 damaged over San Carlos Water by 40mm Bofors from HMS Fearless or Intrepid, and crashes near Port Howard (5.00 pm). Lt Velasco ejects

Friday 28th May

[a59] - Aermacchi MB-339A of CANA 1 Esc shot down at Goose Green by Blowpipe SAM fired by Royal Marine Air Defence Troop (5.00 pm). Lt Miguel killed.

[a60] - Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 shot down at Goose Green by fire from 2 Para (5.10 pm). Lt Cruzado ejects and becomes POW.

Saturday 29th May

[a61] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over San Carlos Water by Rapier SAM (12.00 pm]. Lt Bernhardt killed.

Sunday 30th May

[a62] - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 lost in the morning in uncertain circumstances near Mount Kent, possibly to own forces fire.

[a63, a64] - In the attack against the carrier HMS Invincible, two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 shot down east of Falklands by Sea Darts fired by HMS Exeter, although 4.5 inch gunfire from HMS Avenger may have hit one (2.35 pm). Lt Vazquez and Lt Castillo killed.



Tuesday 1st June

[a65] - Hercules C.130E of FAA Transport Grupo 1 shot down 50 miles North of Pebble Island by Cmdr Ward RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder and 30mm cannon (10.45 am). Crew of seven killed.

Monday 7th June

[a66] - Learjet 35A of FAA Photo-Reconnaissance Grupo 1 shot down over Pebble Island by Sea Dart fired by HMS Exeter (9.05 am). Wing Cmdr de la Colina and crew of four killed.

Tuesday 8th June

[a67, a68, a69] - Two A-4B Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Flt Lt Morgan RAF and a third by Lt D Smith in No.800 NAS Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (4.45 pm). Lt Arraras, Lt Bolzan and Ensign Vazquez killed.

Sunday 13th June

[a70] - Canberra B.62 of FAA Grupo 2 shot down west of Stanley by Sea Dart fired by HMS Exeter (10.55 pm). Pilot, Capt Pastran ejects safely but Capt Casado is killed.

Postwar - Captured at Stanley

[a71-a81] - Eleven Pucaras of FAA Grupo 3

[a82-a83] - Two Bell 212's of FAA Grupo 7

[a84-a86] - Three Aermacchi MB-339A's of CANA 1 Esc

[a87] - Puma SA.330L of PNA

[a88] - Chinook CH-47C of CAB 601

[a89-a90] - Two Agusta A-109A Hirundos of CAB 601

[a91-a99] - Nine Iroquois UH-1H's of CAB 601

[Nonskimmer]

Hey man, don't feel obligated. I was just interested that's all. All good stuff though.

[plan_D]

My dad told me about the Rapiers, Glider. They would hit the enemy aircraft, explode and not do a single thing or they would just bounce off. The warhead was too small on the missile.

[Glider]

Plan D.
I don't want to upset anyone but the Rapier used in the Falklands didn't have a warhead, it relied on hitting the plane directly. A missile of that size (45kg), going at the speed it does (Mach 2.5) will not, I promise you, bounce off anything.
In the armed forces they prefer to nickname it a hittile not a missile as it has to hit the target.
A fragmentation warhead with a laser proximity fuse was developed and is in use in the Mark 2 which is compatible with earlier launchers. Most countries have now upgraded their systems to cater for this.

[plan_D]

Do you want to tell my dad that the Rapiers didn't bounce off the aircraft? Being that he and a lot of lads there either saw it or spoke to the Rocks and Grunts firin' 'em and seeing them hit the aircraft and not do ANYTHING.

[Glider]

Simple maths and Physics. Put it another way, a car roof is probably as thick as a planes skin. So if a 100lb rock falling from a cliff with a terminal velocity of around 120mph, wouldn't bounce off your car roof. Why would a streamlined missile going roughly 18 times faster bounce off the same roof?