Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

French chief resigns live ammo incident

Modern Discuss French chief resigns live ammo incident in the Other Eras forums; PARIS (Reuters) - France's army chief of staff resigned on Tuesday after a soldier fired live ammunition instead of blanks ...


Go Back   Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums > Other Eras > Modern

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-01-2008, 05:39 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
comiso90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,254
Country:
French chief resigns live ammo incident




PARIS (Reuters) - France's army chief of staff resigned on Tuesday after a soldier fired live ammunition instead of blanks at a weekend military show and injured 17 people, the presidential office said.
ADVERTISEMENT

President Nicolas Sarkozy had pledged to react rapidly and severely following the incident during a military show by the Third Marine Parachute regiment, open to the public in the southern French town of Carcassonne.

The resignation of General Bruno Cuche comes as France, which took over the rotating presidency of the European Union on Tuesday, looks to revamp its armed forces by slashing staff numbers and trying to ensure soldiers in the field are better equipped.

"The President, the head of the armies, has accepted the resignation presented by army General Bruno Cuche, head of the land army," said a statement from Sarkozy's office.

Sarkozy expected the armed forces "to draw every consequence with regards to the way they are organized and function," the statement said.

Cuche answers to a higher-ranking officer in charge of the overall armed forces while Sarkozy is the ultimate head of the French military.

The incident highlighted serious breaches in the use of arms and security during demonstrations at public military events, Defense Minister Herve Morin said in a separate statement.

As a precaution, the defense ministry was suspending the use of blanks during open or public demonstrations, Morin said.

DISCONTENT

Speaking later to RTL radio, Morin said Cuche had alluded to such a resignation while traveling to meet the victims of the incident on Sunday, mostly members of the public including a 3-year-old boy.

"As the head of the (land) army charged with the preparation and training of forces, he was the highest authority," said Morin.

The boy was hit in the heart and in the arm as the crowd watched soldiers simulate an attack. His condition had stabilized after doctors operated on him.

The soldier who fired the shots was taken in for questioning and was due to appear before a judge, who would consider the public prosecutor's request that the soldier be placed under formal investigation for "unintentional injuries."

French media reported that the soldier had been placed under formal investigation.

The French media has reported on low morale in some quarters of the military fuelled by government plans to slash military staff numbers, mostly to the detriment of support functions, and to close or merge some military bases.

Some officers have spoken out anonymously against a military roadmap charting French defense strategy over the coming 15 years which Sarkozy unveiled on June 17 in the form of a government policy document.

For some in the army, plans to cut 54,000 mostly administrative and support posts over the coming six or seven years and the way Sarkozy has handled defense matters points to a downsizing in military capability and ambition.

French army chief resigns after live ammo incident - Yahoo! News

.
__________________
“that can’t be a prop job....it’s got to be one of the 262 jets.”.... James Finnegan.



comiso90 is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 06:29 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
CharlesBronson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 1,840
Country:
Amazing, there is a big, big difference between blank and live cartrigdes...the blank have no projectile, how a mistake of that caliber could happen ?
__________________
CharlesBronson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 07:42 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
comiso90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,254
Country:
Right...

Which is more embarrassing, having a soldier that is twisted enough to load live rounds and targeting civilians or having a soldier stupid enough to do the same?

Perhaps they chose to represent it as a mistake...


,
__________________
“that can’t be a prop job....it’s got to be one of the 262 jets.”.... James Finnegan.



comiso90 is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 07:55 PM   #4
aka Dickcheese
 
Matt308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,856
Country:
If that was a mistake, it was a mistake of magnitudes. Blank cartridges are ABSOLUTELY distinguishable even to a moron who has been introduced to a high caliber weapon.

I suspect this was pre-meditated.

Note that a blank cartridge has a crimped upper case. This is easily contrasted with a cartridge that is loaded with a bullet (copper or painted depending upon military use).

Something criminal has occurred. The question is who is responsible.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg blank.jpg (13.5 KB, 42 views)
__________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if
they made a difference in the world. But, the [U.S.]
Marines don't have that problem."
-- Ronald Reagan

Master of Duplicate Posts
Matt308 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 10:47 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
wilbur1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Escondido,Ca
Posts: 1,945
Country:
Guys no offense.....thier french
__________________

Dont shoot him...... It will just make him angry.
wilbur1 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 12:25 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Wildcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 3,372
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt308 View Post
Blank cartridges are ABSOLUTELY distinguishable even to a moron who has been introduced to a high caliber weapon.
This was my immediate thought also. You've got serious problems if your soldiers can't tell a blank from a live round.
__________________
Wildcat is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 12:38 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
comiso90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,254
Country:
Yes Yes Yes...
My comment in post #3 still rings strong.

Recoil too. It's been a while since I shot blanks (bullets that is... no comments!) but I definatly remember the recoil was diminished.

I suppose it depends on the load in the cartridge.

It's a silly attempt at a cover-up.

The jerk-offs at Columbine HS thought they were using blanks too!

.
__________________
“that can’t be a prop job....it’s got to be one of the 262 jets.”.... James Finnegan.



comiso90 is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 05:03 PM   #8
aka Dickcheese
 
Matt308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,856
Country:
In fact comiso, you are exactly right. In order for the piston/operating rod to work properly, a fitting must be put over the muzzle to ensure high enough gas pressures to cycle the action. If you don't have this muzzle blocking device, you can only fire ONE blank. If you have attached this muzzle blocking device and attempt to fire a live round... well, you don't accidentally kill 15 people on full auto. All that happens is you put yourself in hospital.
__________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if
they made a difference in the world. But, the [U.S.]
Marines don't have that problem."
-- Ronald Reagan

Master of Duplicate Posts
Matt308 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 05:51 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 181
Country:
There is no cover up, only negligence. I've been watching this unfold on TF1 satellite TV and through RF1 shortwave radio. This is appearing to be a horrible accident.

The latest facts: No one died. Rumors were that a 3 year old child was severly injured and died enroute to the hospitol. Not true - The child was hurt at chest height but he/she is recovering well according to the doctors. According to the local Justice officials, it was a horrible accident. The sergeant ( 3rd RPIMa) was firing blank rounds during the first part of the demonstration, then unknowingly reloaded with a full magazine of live rounds he had in one of his vest pouches. This was the fatal mistake. This mag was not noticed during the safety inspections befor the show. It turned out to be a mag from a previous training exercise, which had been left in his tactical vest. He did not check all of his magazines. The live rounds blew away his blank adaptor. The soldier stopped firing (the FAMAS has a select fire 3-round burst and full-auto capability - It seems it was on full auto when the live round mag was inserted.) after he saw the explosion at the end of his muzzle. The report also said that several people were injured by the same bullets going through different bodies. Most of those attending were military families, 15 of which were injured, the other two were officers.

A horrible and tragic mistake which could have been prevented with a thorough safety check on the soldier's part. Hopefully it will not happen again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur1 View Post
Guys no offense.....thier french
Next time there's a friendly-fire incident between US troops, can we count on you to remind us that "They're Americans"? No offense, but wacky and crazy s**t happens sometimes, and it doesn't hurt to have a little sympathy for the victims.




As for the French Army Chief of Staff resigning, that was utter nonsense. No need for him to resign, but much to the surprise of the French, Mr. Sarkozy is turning out to be quite an ass-hat in regards to the military.
__________________
You'll live. Only the best get killed. - Charles de Gaulle

England is a former colony gone horribly wrong. - Georges Clemenceau
Arsenal VG-33 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 07:31 PM   #10
aka Dickcheese
 
Matt308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,856
Country:
How do you injure 17 people... even with a 3rd burst? And the "the same bullets going through different bodies" is very dubious. Even firing into a solid crowd the likelihood of a few rounds injuring that many people is physically remote. Assuming the circumstances are as stated...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg smells_like_bullshit.jpg (39.9 KB, 28 views)
__________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if
they made a difference in the world. But, the [U.S.]
Marines don't have that problem."
-- Ronald Reagan

Master of Duplicate Posts
Matt308 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 08:47 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 181
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt308 View Post
How do you injure 17 people... even with a 3rd burst? And the "the same bullets going through different bodies" is very dubious. Even firing into a solid crowd the likelihood of a few rounds injuring that many people is physically remote. Assuming the circumstances are as stated...
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough....I do recall the report stating that the weapon was on full burst mode when the accident occurred-assuming it was a fully loaded, standard STANAG mag being used. I was simply pointing out the fact that the FAMAS has the capablility of either 3 burst of full burst selective fire.

There is no cover up or conspiracy to cover up here. First speculations was that the soldier had a vendetta of some sort or simply "snapped", but this has been quickly disproven. I am curious to know why some here wish to believe it's a cover up/conspiracy of some sort.
__________________
You'll live. Only the best get killed. - Charles de Gaulle

England is a former colony gone horribly wrong. - Georges Clemenceau

Last edited by Arsenal VG-33 : 07-02-2008 at 08:57 PM.
Arsenal VG-33 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 09:11 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
comiso90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,254
Country:
The report I heard didnt mention a whole clip, it just mentioned "Bullets in the pocket". Mistaking a whole clip I suppose is plausible but the weight difference of a clip of blanks and a FMJ is significant. Plus the recoil ...

Even if it was nothing more then a mistake there are several points where a wrong decision was made or poor instinct prevailed
__________________
“that can’t be a prop job....it’s got to be one of the 262 jets.”.... James Finnegan.




Last edited by comiso90 : 07-02-2008 at 09:17 PM.
comiso90 is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2008, 12:04 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
trackend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,500
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesBronson View Post
Amazing, there is a big, big difference between blank and live cartrigdes?
Agreed, there has to be more to this than meets the eye.
trackend is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2008, 04:53 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
JugBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Campinas - SP
Posts: 578
Country:
is that serious ? not joke ?

man, i can figure hows french public opinion are dealing with that episode ! sarkozy is busted !
__________________


"“America can present to the world two great accomplishments, to the north the Channel of Panama and to the south the geographic conquests of Candido Rondon.”

Theodore Roosevelt.
JugBR is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 03:35 PM   #15
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 12
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesBronson View Post
Amazing, there is a big, big difference between blank and live cartrigdes...the blank have no projectile, how a mistake of that caliber could happen ?



If i remember well, you'll need a special device called "BTB" ( bouchon de tir a blanc" to peform a fire with blank cartridge with a FAMAS assault rifle.
Techos is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0
   

AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com Avitop.com


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85