Greatest Fighter Aircraft of All Time

syscom3 · 02-19-2006, 10:12 PM

But their were no Spitfires flying past the Netherlands and Belgium untill airfields in France were established. The early P47's had a similar range issue untill the long range drop tanks were available. P38's and P51's never had this issue and simply flew deep into Germany and fought the Luftwaffe where they were.

The best fighter is the one that can bring fly to the fight where ever it is and hold its own. While the P38's and P51's were flying over Berlin, the Spits were waiting over the Channel wishing they could get into the fight.

But if the Spit had the range issue solved, then why were none of them being used for the bomber escorts?

And the Spitfires performce in the CBI was decidedly "so-so". It simply didnt have the range required to fly where the main action was, and that was in the Solomons and New Guinie.

Like I said, it was perhaps the best fighter int he first half of the war, but was quickly outclassed by other types.

plan_D · 02-19-2006, 10:15 PM

The Spitfire was flying over France escorting bombers, where the Luftwaffe was still in operation. The Spitfires in the Soviet Union were operating against the Luftwaffe there. The Spitfires in North Africa were operating against the Luftwaffe there. The Spitfires in Italy were operating against the Luftwaffe there. There were Spitfires over Belgium and Holland.

And the Spitfires in the CBI attained a 8:1 kill:loss ratio. That is not "so-so" ...

syscom3 · 02-19-2006, 10:55 PM

But there were no Spitfires flying over Germany.

the lancaster kicks ass · 02-20-2006, 03:37 AM

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Still tied with the Lanc for 2nd best

dude everyone proved you wrong on that one! we all agreed the lanc was outright second you provided no real argument, but this isn't the place for this, go back to the bomber threads if you want to carry this on.........

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But there were no Spitfires flying over Germany.

pD's already said there were, heck even i've heard about spits over germany..............

loomaluftwaffe · 02-20-2006, 03:58 AM

Dude! the Spit must have been HORRIBLE and not have deserved a place as one of the greatest fighters of WW2 if it cant just go from France to Germany.
this is the wrong place for a lanc, it deserves the place as one of the greatest BOMBERS

and Spitifres were also used as bomber escorts alot earlier, prolly during the luft's glory days

the lancaster kicks ass · 02-20-2006, 04:18 AM

yes spits escorted early light bomber raids into france and some of the low countries early in the war, and the spits DID escort daylight raids later in the war, the reason you don't hear about them much is because the RAF flew most bombing sorties by night later in the war, how do you propose a primarily day fighter escorts a lanc to berlin at night? that's why we had mossies..........

Gnomey · 02-20-2006, 04:26 AM

They also did Rhubarbs and such like over France in 1941-43...

the lancaster kicks ass · 02-20-2006, 04:36 AM

they helped out the lancs when they were doing some gardening too........

(i wonder how long we can keep a conversation going with RAF slang

)

Jabberwocky · 02-20-2006, 05:12 AM

Without recieving some major boosts to internal fuel, the Spitfire couldn't of made a long range escort like the P-51/P-38 and to a lesser extent the P-47.

But, by the middle of 1944, with the fitting of wing tanks, rear fuselage tanks and enlarged foward tanks, Spitfires had double their internal fuel capacity, and with the fitting of external tanks its range had increased by around 250%. Spitfires VIIs were running 4 hour long daylight escort missions by mid 1943.

Did it turn into a long range escort fighter? No, of course not. But its not as useless in the post '43 ETO/PTO/MTO as syscom would have us believe.

Similarly, while the Spitfire couldn't operate effectively over Germany as a long range escort in 1944, the P-51 could hardly of fulfilled the role of point interceptor that the Spitfire played over Britain in 1940, Malta in 1942 and over the Continent in the post D-Day period.

Its really a case of design priorities. Spitfires were designed as short ranged point interceptors. The P-51 was designed for long range operations.

The Spitfire pushed the LuftWaffe back into France and then kept it there. Can you imagine the USAAF trying to to build up its first mass bomber formations in late 1942 and 1943 without the RAF running constant interference? Or getting masses groups of P-51s, P-47s and P-38s into the air without the RAF controling British airspace?

The excellence of the Spitfire and the dedication of the RAF allowed the USAAF to concentrate on destroying the LUftWaffe. Someone else was running defence, so they could concentrate on offence. If the USAAF were forced to defend their own airspace, do you think they could of projected power nearly as effectively as they did?

Gnomey · 02-20-2006, 05:23 AM

Of course not which is why the defence of British Airspace was just as important if not more important than the offensive action against the Luftwaffe undertaken by the USAAF. For what it did the Spitfire was (and is) a great aircraft.

evangilder · 02-20-2006, 08:01 AM

Good points guys. Let's not forget that a lot of the American fighters were designed or altered based on lessons learned by the British.

the lancaster kicks ass · 02-20-2006, 08:25 AM

and in some cases even went as far as using british engines with british engineers high up in the design stages

but to say that interceptors were not needed over south england post '41 is rubbish, as has been said the raiders that would otherwise have caused havoc amoung the formating bombers had to be kept out, which is what the RAF, and more specifically the spitfire did, the LW still had fighters based in northern france, as long as they were there there was a threat......

syscom3 · 02-20-2006, 11:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

......Spitfires VIIs were running 4 hour long daylight escort missions by mid 1943....

There is no evidence they escorted 8th AF bombers past the low countries. They had the same range restrictions as the P47's.

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.....as useless in the post '43 ETO/PTO/MTO as syscom would have us believe...

It was the best allied fighter up to the end of 1943. Then its role as carrying the fight to the Luftwaffe was over as the long range P51's and P38's went where the Spit (and P47) couldnt. It's obvious its glory days were eclipsed.

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Similarly, while the Spitfire couldn't operate effectively over Germany as a long range escort in 1944, the P-51 could hardly of fulfilled the role of point interceptor that the Spitfire played over Britain in 1940, Malta in 1942 and over the Continent in the post D-Day period.

The P38 always had a phenominal rate of climb. This was its origionally designed role. In 1943, it could have been easily used as an interceptor if it had been made available for that mission.

Plus as Ive said before, the Spit was the best allied fighter in 1940-through most of 1943.

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Its really a case of design priorities. Spitfires were designed as short ranged point interceptors. The P-51 was designed for long range operations.

In 1944 and 1945, the air war had changed where the allied requirement for interceptors were way back on the list. Once the long range fighters were chasing the Luftwaffe all over Germany and Poland, the Spitfire was way in back waiting for an occasional and inconsequential German intruder.

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The Spitfire pushed the LuftWaffe back into France and then kept it there. Can you imagine the USAAF trying to to build up its first mass bomber formations in late 1942 and 1943 without the RAF running constant interference? Or getting masses groups of P-51s, P-47s and P-38s into the air without the RAF controling British airspace?

There were no "mass" 8th AF bomber formations untill summer of 1943. In fact, there were also few P47 groups to go with them. It really wasnt untill Jan/Feb 1944 that the AAF had enough P38's and P51's to penetrate deep into Germany.

As Ive said plenty of times, the Spitfire was the best allied fighter up to the end of 1943. After that time, its role was becoming more and more irrelevant.

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The excellence of the Spitfire and the dedication of the RAF allowed the USAAF to concentrate on destroying the LUftWaffe. Someone else was running defence, so they could concentrate on offence. If the USAAF were forced to defend their own airspace, do you think they could of projected power nearly as effectively as they did?

In 1944, there was a flood of 8th, 9th, 12th and 15th AF fighters. The fighters of all these AF's brought the fight to the Luftwaffe and kept them bottled up. Where the allied bombers were flying, so will you find the Luftwaffe.

the lancaster kicks ass · 02-20-2006, 01:13 PM

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There were no "mass" 8th AF bomber formations untill summer of 1943. In fact, there were also few P47 groups to go with them. It really wasnt untill Jan/Feb 1944 that the AAF had enough P38's and P51's to penetrate deep into Germany.

he wasn't refering to the spits escorting the bombers, he was talking about spits in the interceptor role keeping german raiders from northern france from entering british airspace and reaking havoc in the formating bombers, imagine the trouble a handful of -190s could cause if they got into the bombers amoungst the chaos of the formation, why is it that they didn't do this? because of the RAF keeping them out.........

syscom3 · 02-20-2006, 02:46 PM

Up to the end of 1943, the Spits did a great job doing this. In 1944, there were plenty of 8th and 9th AF fighters to also do interception work if required.

In fact, you can make an argument that the P38 would have been superior to the Spitfire for the interception role as its endurance was so much higher, it could climb to altitude and wait for the incoming German planes than to have to stay on the ground and then scramble.