The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

Henk · 05-28-2006, 05:13 PM

Na, you can not understand what I am saying lets just drop it

Henk

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-28-2006, 05:15 PM

No I fully understand what you are saying.

FLYBOYJ · 05-28-2006, 05:20 PM

Here's some info on the MiG-15 vs. F-86 during the Korean War.

ACIG which has always been a pretty reliable data base has made it's living on attempting to put together accurate information regarding air-to-air victories in the post WW2 years. Here's some numbers I got from Soviet pilots vs. USAF, Chinese vs. USAF and in the end the total USAF MiG-15 kill Talley (if you follow ACIG's numbers)

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/index.shtml

From Nov 1, 1950 through August 29, 1951 the Soviet pilots operating over North Korea claimed 141 US aircraft destroyed of which 44 were F-86s. The USAF claimed 112 of which 44 were MiG-15s! How many of these were flown by Soviet pilots, we will never know. From Sept 1, 1951 through December 31, 1951 the Soviets claimed another 59 F-86s while the USAF claimed another 134 Mig-15s, this is also a period where the F-86E was coming on scene. After that that record of Soviet pilots fall off, probably because most of the Soviets were rotated home as it seem the war was going to drag on.

From January 1, 1952 through May 31 1952 the USAF claimed another 163 and then from June 1952 through December 1952 another 210. During the same period the Chinese claimed 19 F-86s.

Now in the ACIG lists, there are confirmed kills noted by each side, probables and damaged aircraft are not included. In a total tally of these numbers the US bested the MiG-15 1.6 to 1 (178 to 103) during the period Soviet pilots were operating with the PNKAF. In the latter time (Sept 1, 1951 through December 31, 1951 the USAF had a kill ratio of better than 2 to 1, again we will never know how many of the USAF victories were Soviet. Bottom line, as they were part of an opposing air arm, they, along with their North Korean comrades seemed to be getting their @sses kicked.

From Jan 1952, through May 31, 1952 I show an additional 163 MiG-15s claimed by the USAF. From June 1952 to December 1952 the number rises to 210. During this whole time I show USAF F-86 air-to-air combat losses for the F-86 as 122.

Factor all those together and this is what you have - 122 F-86s lost in air to air fighting with 551 MiG-15s destroyed about a 5 to 1 kill ratio. I believe these numbers are pretty accurate as they seem more in tune with admitted communist losses. It has always been said that the USAF greatly inflated its kill numbers, the Soviets who flew in Korea are no different as for example, they claimed 186 F-80s, while it seems only 60 were lost.

So there you have it, you could believe these numbers for further try to split them but I think it still shows that even in the early days of the Korean War, the MiG-15 and their pilots (be they Soviet, Chinese or North Korean) didn't have a dominant grasp over early F-86s and their pilots...

Bounce this data aginst the data from this site....

http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html

lesofprimus · 05-28-2006, 05:49 PM

Excellent post Joe...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-28-2006, 06:01 PM

Yes excellent post, thankyou.

FLYBOYJ · 05-28-2006, 06:08 PM

Thanks!!!

davparlr · 05-28-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

Yeah, I suppose the Sabre wasn't the greatest, but maybe I am a bit biased! But in it's day it wasn't too bad.

I think you have to judge planes against its contemporaries, or rate them by era, and in its day, it was recognized a pretty doggone good. It was successful in nulifying the Mig (which was also pretty doggone good) threat in Korea and was always outnumbered and tended to fight over the enemys base. Unlike WWII, Korea was show time for the Sabre and Mig. All the other aircraft were a side show (not that they didn't contribute mightily, but because the Sabres kept the Migs away).

[quote=FLYBOYJ Here's some info on the MiG-15 vs. F-86 during the Korean War.

ACIG which has always been a pretty reliable data base has made it's living on attempting to put together accurate information regarding air-to-air victories in the post WW2 years. Here's some numbers I got from Soviet pilots vs. USAF, Chinese vs. USAF and in the end the total USAF MiG-15 kill Talley (if you follow ACIG's numbers).[/QUOTE]

I am a bit confused or naive but weren't there criteria for claiming US aircraft kills? I would have thought this criteria would have alleviated some uncertainty in claims? The Russian, North Korean, and Chinese claims, I would think, would be more suspect.

FLYBOYJ · 05-28-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Here's some info on the MiG-15 vs. F-86 during the Korean War.

ACIG which has always been a pretty reliable data base has made it's living on attempting to put together accurate information regarding air-to-air victories in the post WW2 years. Here's some numbers I got from Soviet pilots vs. USAF, Chinese vs. USAF and in the end the total USAF MiG-15 kill Talley (if you follow ACIG's numbers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by davparlr

I am a bit confused or naive but weren't there criteria for claiming US aircraft kills? I would have thought this criteria would have alleviated some uncertainty in claims? The Russian, North Korean, and Chinese claims, I would think, would be more suspect.

There was criteria for confirming kills on both sides - many times a smoking Mig-15 made it across the Yalu and was not counted as a kill but was destroyed out of harms way of the F-86s. The Russians also claim that many US kills were over-exaggerated, with 2 or 3 pilots claiming the same aircraft. US pilots were professional pilots, diven by their career and duty, but unlike their Soviet counterparts did not have to shield their existence over North Korea. The Soviet pilots on the other hand were in North Korea covertly - they were paid bonuses based on performance and would of probably been severely punished for failure (remember Stalin was still in power). With the Soviet pilots getting "cash of kills" I would think they would exaggerate a bit (see the lower site I posted on my last post.) Here's a site put together by a Russian that paints a different story. This guy shows claims of aircraft that would of wiped out a whole typed of aircraft in the USAF inventory!!! (He shows 832 F-86s lost - I don't think there weren't that many built by 1953!!!!

http://wio.ru/korea/korea-a.htm

FLYBOYJ · 05-28-2006, 07:30 PM

Here's more from Winkipedia....

U.S. pilots claimed to achieve impressive success (although probably exaggerated) with the F-86, stating to shoot down 792 MiG-15s and 108 additional aircraft for the loss of 78 Sabres, a ratio in excess of 10:1. Some post-war research has only able to confirm 379 victories, although the USAF continues to maintain its official credits. Direct comparison of Sabre and MiG losses seem irrelevant, as primary targets for MiGs were heavy B-29 bombers, and primary targets for Sabres were MiG-15s. Recently exposed Soviet documentation claims that 345 Soviet MiG-15s were lost during the Korean war.

Soviet sources claimed at that time, however, about 1300 victories and 335 MiG losses. China's official losses were 231 planes shot down in air-to-air combat (mostly MiG-15) and 168 other losses. The number of losses of the North Korean Air Force was not revealed. It is estimated that it lost about 200 aircraft in the first stage of the war, and another 70 aircraft since Chinese intervention. Soviet's claims of 650 victories over F-86s and China's claims of another 211 F-86s in air combats are regarded as exaggerated by the USAF. A recent publication showed that the total number of USAF F-86s ever present in the Korean peninsula during the war was only 674 and the total F-86s losses due to all causes were about 230. With each side making their own claims it is difficult to conclude on the actual losses and kills of the air war.

davparlr · 05-28-2006, 07:39 PM

Sounds like this is an argument that will never be solved. I'm bias, I think I trust the AF numbers.

Dac · 05-28-2006, 08:26 PM

You also have to take into account the conditions under which most of the combat took place over the Yalu. The F-86s were almost always outnumbered and battle usually started with a height advantage for the Mig-15 pilots. They would wait north of the border where they were safe until they started hearing "bingo" calls from the USAF pilots at which point they "came shooting south like water from a firehose" to quote one American pilot. Often there were 4 Migs for each Sabre, and it had to have been a pretty damn good plane for it's time or a lot more U.S. pilots never would have come home.

FLYBOYJ · 05-28-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davparlr

Sounds like this is an argument that will never be solved. I'm bias, I think I trust the AF numbers.

I'm not biased, but I think the USAF claims are more crediable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dac

You also have to take into account the conditions under which most of the combat took place over the Yalu. The F-86s were almost always outnumbered and battle usually started with a height advantage for the Mig-15 pilots. They would wait north of the border where they were safe until they started hearing "bingo" calls from the USAF pilots at which point they "came shooting south like water from a firehose" to quote one American pilot. Often there were 4 Migs for each Sabre, and it had to have been a pretty damn good plane for it's time or a lot more U.S. pilots never would have come home.

Yep - under these conditions a 2 to 1 kill ratio would of been excellent...

davparlr · 05-29-2006, 12:13 PM

I think the F-86 was a great fighter and I doubt that there were any pilots that felt they were going to war with a substandard plane. Pilots tend not to be aggressive when they lack confidence in their steed. And Korean Sabre pilots were known for their aggressiveness.

Dac · 05-29-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davparlr

I think the F-86 was a great fighter and I doubt that there were any pilots that felt they were going to war with a substandard plane. Pilots tend not to be aggressive when they lack confidence in their steed. And Korean Sabre pilots were known for their aggressiveness.

That's true, the Sabre was overdesigned by 50% so it could handle 12G maneouvers in an emergency and had few handling flaws. The Mig-15 on the other hand could be temperamental. Soviet pilots were instructed in a spin to punch out on the third rotation because it was nearly impossible to recover after that. That wouldn't inspire much confidence.

FLYBOYJ · 05-29-2006, 02:03 PM

I've been in love with both of these aircraft since I was a kid and a dream came true for me when I started doing work in Mojave California in the mid 90s. I got to work on both aircraft and flown in a Mig-15UTI. These aircrat were owned and operated by private individuals. Both aircraft are brilliant in their own ways but the F-86 is way more advanced and a harder aircraft to maintain becuase of that. The MIG isn't as stable and I noticed how it tended to "snake" at landing. The guy who owns the F-86 that I worked on stated if you get the aircraft too slow it will drop a wing at landing but was far more stable than the MiG-15.