The Iraq War

[freebird]

Originally Posted by wilbur1

The problem lies with religion, who can say that the belief of one is stronger than the other. I feel that if we are fighting a war then act like it instead of trying to pull another Vietnam, dont get me wrong OUR soldiers<the world> are doing the best ive everseen or heard of, But why are we holding back?

Because if you "don't hold back" ie loosen the ROE's you run a greater risk of civilians getting hit, which defeats the purpose to begin with. If the population sees the US soldiers as trigger happy occupiers, however wrong that may be in reality, it becomes more difficult to do the mission. It's no surprise that every mistake become an "atrocity" on Al-Jazeera.

[Konigstiger205]

The wonders of propaganda...one thing is clear...the iraqi people like most of you said need to police themselves because if they are not capable of taking care of their own country then all this effort and sacrificed lives have been in vain...My country supports the U.S. troops and we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan but our people is getting tired of so many deaths specially when our military is so poor and maintaining the troops there costs.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by freebird

What's your take on what should be done Chris? And I mean other than "giving the Iraqi's time to build a stable government". I don't have alot of confidence in that happening this century. Assuming that they can't get their act together (?) whats the "change in tactics" or the Plan "B" in your mind?

I think the hands of our soldiers are tied behind there backs (this is just my observation of having served there) and we should untie there hands.

Also we need to put more pressure on the Arabs to step up and do something.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by freebird

Because if you "don't hold back" ie loosen the ROE's you run a greater risk of civilians getting hit, which defeats the purpose to begin with. If the population sees the US soldiers as trigger happy occupiers, however wrong that may be in reality, it becomes more difficult to do the mission. It's no surprise that every mistake become an "atrocity" on Al-Jazeera.

The problem is who is a civilian and who is an insurgent? We never knew down there....

[plan_D]

That's the feeling I was getting from the book; there were unarmed Iraqis target spotting for the mortar crews that were out of sight. Initially the snipers could not engage these obvious spotters until the officer commanding was given R & R and the new man declared these spotters as hostile because they pose a threat to safety even if they were unarmed... as I said, the ROE are up for interpretation.

I assume the problem with the Iraqi police and 'military' is the same all over Iraq. During the ceasefire [2004] it was decided to use Iraqi military to guard the CIMIC compound in Al Amarah ... they were always late, and would leave the gate unguarded for hours ... or just go home early. The police were even worse ... they'd allow many get away with anything, many were drunk on duty, and a lot were on the insurgents side. Sgt. Mills had a officer of the law in Iraq point his AK at him ... but he quickly panicked and claimed it was a joke when the snipers put their SA80s in the sh*t bags face.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I think the hands of our soldiers are tied behind there backs (this is just my observation of having served there) and we should untie there hands.

Yes, and I can imagine how frustrating it can be, as Plan D writes, they suspect that the civilians are spotting for the bad guys. Here's the problem I see though Chris, if there are some REAL civilians killed (and there will be, it can't totally be avoided) then AL Jazeera etc. will be filming the corpses from 20 different angles. The population sees the USA as heavy handed, and loses faith in their Gov't who are allied with the US, opening the door for rhetoric from the local mosque. It looks like a catch-22 to me, by loosening the ROE's you do better against the militants, but may lose the battle for "hearts & minds"

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you. It is a no win situation in the case of civilians.

Thats why this war is like no war before.

[Erich]

semi-chuckle on the inside .......... the last half dozen postings sound like what we went through in Nam

the facts of war gentlemen, civilians will take it harder than the military. It always happens, too many innocents will get killed and there is no way to avoid this. As in Nam the villagers had an Ak 47 pointed at their backs, in the mid-east they are forced to take a bullet or their children/themselves rounded up for possible future useage as a bomber ............ I know this as fact

[wilbur1]

Well Erich, if thats the way its going to be i say..let the dogs loose, God will sort them out

[Erich]

we've had that saying let God sort em out since suvivalist times here in southern Oregon since the late 60's. sorry wilbur but it is the truth, there will never be peace in the mid-east we have to take this as fact, if any it will be too short termed. Adler and I and others know full well the simple possibilities of tribal war that has been going on for centuries even while we were over there and are still over there, one one leaves as a protecting force, another will surely move in, it is almost one of logistics, the place is volitile and this is what happens even with an overwhelming presence. The Iraqis do not want us there, even knowing that if we left tomorrow that they would probably get creamed. And again with our way of thinking we are westerners not having any clue how the eastern way of thinking acts nor responds

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Erich

semi-chuckle on the inside .......... the last half dozen postings sound like what we went through in Nam

the facts of war gentlemen, civilians will take it harder than the military. It always happens, too many innocents will get killed and there is no way to avoid this. As in Nam the villagers had an Ak 47 pointed at their backs, in the mid-east they are forced to take a bullet or their children/themselves rounded up for possible future useage as a bomber ............ I know this as fact

Agreed 100%

[Derfman]

The thing I'd really like to see would be a two edged sword.

A huge part of the problem is mushy politically correct thinking in western countries, especially on military issues.

If the point could be driven home that there is a CRITICAL difference between a bomber (suicide or not) that blows up a sidewalk cafe, and a soldier that shoots at an enemy combatant but hits a non-combatant by accident, then we would see much more support for the ugly cost of cleaning up that mess.

However, if you stress the above point enough, some "militant" groups would avoid killing random non-combatants, and would ambush soldiers and cops and such, and you'd be pretty much forced to recognize that their fighting methods were a step above the subhuman trash that TARGET sidewalk cafes and busy markets for attacks.

[plan_D]

Another problem ... the Coalition is supplying the insurgents with weapons. Many a time the Royal Regiment handed weapons over to the police and Iraqi military ... and within a day they'd disappeared ( the regiment checked up on them almost everyday ) ... they'd gone to the insurgents !

The Royal Regiment though ... what I have had read is fantastic. While on foot patrol some of the lads heard an ambush against some land rovers (Snatches, name from Northern Ireland) ...and ran 900 metres just to go give 'em a hand..against all orders, of course. On another patrol, one of the lads got in trouble because he was shooting out all the street lights - for obvious reasons.

The Iraqi insurgents really are getting a battering, but as Chris has says they just keep coming.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The problem Marc is that the government is so currupt. The Police regular turn ther backs on the insurgents. Those that dont are found in a ditch with there head cut off several days later.

[Gnomey]

Bought this for myself for Christmas after hearing about it here. Only 3 chapters in so far and enjoying it, gives a real insight to Southern Iraq. I would certainly highly recommend it.