Main battle tanks of today.....

[Kurfürst]

From what armor estimation figures I`ve seen, modern tanks are pretty well protected against HEAT projectiles - from the FRONT, from any other angle they may resist smaller handheld RPGs and 20-30mm autocannons of IFVs.

Of the top of my head, I recall the Leo 2A5 had something like an equivalent of 1600-2000mm (!!!) rolled homegenous steel armor against HEAT projectiles in the front hemisphere. That`s pretty potent, and no wonder why tank vs tank combat it fought almost exlusively today with KE penetrator APFSDS aka sabot rounds. Western tanks reserved and carried HEAT against soft targets and IFVs, and no special HE shell at all, given the Red Armored Horde.

[Glider]

I don't know if it counts for anything, but I believe that the UK have only lost two Challanger II's in action. One to a very large roadside bomb, and the other to another Challanger in a friendly fire incident.

Everything else has failed.

[seesul]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

Are tanks really all that safe on the battlefield? With all the TOW rockets, laser guided bombs, attack helicopters, attack planes, etc., how safe is a tank? Do you think it's an outdated weapon?

Yes, when I was in the army (´92-´93) as a tank driver (archaic T-55AM2) I was told that the calculated tank crew life in combat is 7 minutes...
I was lucky, never been in combat so a great experience as I really like each kind of off road drive...

[seesul]

...and the pic from those times...

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

I don't know if it counts for anything, but I believe that the UK have only lost two Challanger II's in action. One to a very large roadside bomb, and the other to another Challanger in a friendly fire incident.

Everything else has failed.

... wasn`t there a nasty 'blue on blue' incident in the Gulf War of 1991 when a Abrams (or was it another Challie?) platoon shot up a Challanger platoon badly, tanks going off one after the other, with the ones that fired at them cheered ignorantly of what they were doing, only to find out later to their horror...?

Thing to consider though, none of these tanks (thank God!) ever went head on with anything like equal... the Iraqi T-55s and T-72s with decade old, aged Soviet munitions and fire control systems (if any! The 72`s are/were basically cheapo export versions for satellite states.. many models don`t even have a range finder laser, or a FC system..). Hardly an even playing field.

[DBII]

Tanks will never be out dated. It is the same thing as the F4s being produced without a machinegun because missles had made traditional dog fights obsolete. Technology is always changing. The advantage is always changing between armour, firepower, mobility, and anti-tank weapons. Once the armour is improved, work is started designing better weapons to defeat it. Once the weapons are designed, new armour is developed to counter it. The new armour results in increased weight that leads to the design of new power plants. A never ending cycle.

The deployment and tatics of armour will change but they never will go away. Through out the history of armour, people have said that the tanks are no longer useful. At times, governments have gone with the smaller tanks to save money. No matter how the wheel get reinvented one fact remains, nothing can move and strike like an armour force. The best tank killer has always been the main battle tank. The small tanks cannot withstand the attack of the MBTs. Yes they are big, dirty and loud and so are it's crew. The engines drink as much fuel as the crew drinks beer. The MBT was not made for todays LIC (light intensity conflicts) but there are plans to modify the MBT for urban operations. The bee hive and HEP rounds are making a come back (bee hive 120mm flechette round, HEP high explosive plastic). The Ordance and Armour Corps has been developing counter measures since the 90s for laser guided missles. There is a projection system now being field tested to mask both the visual and thermal signature. An IFF system is in place and there is an IF supression system. How can a tank be safe on the battle field? How safe is anyone?

DBII
clank, clank, clank, clank

[DBII]

Seesul, nice picture. I am also an old tanker. I trained on the M60 series and M1 series. 7 minutes...you are lucky. Our Col always said that if we did not destory 7 MBT and were dead in 2 mins we were not doing our jobs...
Our yearly evaluations would reflect our poor skills....lol

DBII
clank, clank, clank

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

... wasn`t there a nasty 'blue on blue' incident in the Gulf War of 1991 when a Abrams (or was it another Challie?) platoon shot up a Challanger platoon badly, tanks going off one after the other, with the ones that fired at them cheered ignorantly of what they were doing, only to find out later to their horror...?

Thing to consider though, none of these tanks (thank God!) ever went head on with anything like equal... the Iraqi T-55s and T-72s with decade old, aged Soviet munitions and fire control systems (if any! The 72`s are/were basically cheapo export versions for satellite states.. many models don`t even have a range finder laser, or a FC system..). Hardly an even playing field.

There was a blue on Blue incident but only one Challanger was destroyed.

There is little doubt in my mind that the when you take the top three to five tanks they are all probably capable of destroying each other. They all have very powerful weapons and very sophisticated fire control systems.
Unlike WW2 ,I feel that the difference these days is how important are the other factors that come into play. Not is my gun able to destroy your tank, because they probably can.

[Thorlifter]

2 minutes.......7 minutes.

IMO, and I may very well be wrong, that sounds like a waste of human, mechanical, and financial resources.

[DBII]

Armour moves at a fast past. If you snooze you die. That is modern HIC, high intensity warfare. The reason why armour will always be used: speed and firepower. One overwhelms the enemy with concentrated fire power. That is why I get so crazy about the middle east. I was train to go in destroy everything in sight and move on to the next objective leaving the enemy wondering what just happened. Think of Sheman's march through the southern states. War has always been a waste of resources and human life. That is why it has to be used only as a last resort.

[Konigstiger205]

After reading this post I wondered myself what tank in the list is my country's "glorious" army is using...to my surprise and horror I learned not only that we have around 300 useless junks but there are no intentions to modernize our tanks...bloody hell they are using modified T55 and a couple of T72....

[Hunter368]

LOL

[Lucky13]

See how long it takes before tanks get something to deffend themself against TOW missiles etc., much like aircraft firing countermeasures (flares) against air to ground missiles....

[DBII]

I vote we all go back to jousting.

DBII

[comiso90]

Ground effect hover tanks protected by electo-plasma force fields and armed with a particle beam and equipped with omni-directional targeting capability so no turret is necessary.

BTW..

Plasma force fields are not fiction. They are in their infancy.
using thicker / better armor to defeat AT rounds wont last forever.


,