Main battle tanks of today.....

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by Soren

Problem with many governments today is that they're oversuspicious, heck take the US government, they want to sell the F-35 to the UK, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark, but they won't give them the vital upgrades (new blocks), as if they're not close Allies. It's ridiculous.

There's a lack of trust which is disconcerning, esp. seeing that this is the 21st century.

Hello Soren,

That sounds very good for the Eurofighter, so please don't interfere

Regards
Kruska

[Soren]

Originally Posted by parsifal

I didnt mean that they were dubious suppliers from the point of view of after sales repairs, but rather along the lines of the french. In the case of the french, it was the government of France who were the problem. In the case of israel, they placed an embargo on the sale of spares and ordinance, hoping to ground the Israeli Mirages on strength at the time. this led to the Israelis stealing plans and producing their own spares and replacements.

In the case of Australia, the French government did the same thing, but the Australians, lacking as much indigenous aero -industry as the Israelis and not wanting to upset a major trading partner, acquiesced to the french demands. But it was a bitter lessen for the Australians, and one they are unlikely to ever forget. It will be a very long time before any further major purchases from France are ever likley to occur.

The French decision was indeed a very strange one, mind boggling to the rest of Europe to say the least. It's still a mystery what the reasoning behind the decision was.

In the case of the Germans, their recent postionings regarding Iraq, at governmental level make them a suspect supplier for Australia,. the Australians do not want to be placed in the same situation as they were with the Mirages.

Now this I don't really understand as I see nothing about this which would make Germany a suspect supplier, could you please clarify it abit?

There is nothing inherently wrong with the actual suppliers. Althoiugh I think on cost the Leopard II are a bit overrated.

The Leopard 2 is probably the safest deal out of every other available tank today, and it's definitely not overrated seeing that it has beaten every other tank in the world in the many tests conducted by the many countries who have bought the Leopard 2.

As to the crystalization of the Leopard I's armour, well this is seriously completely new to me and I know people who maintained and operated this tank. But a simple explanation to the problem could be poor maintenance or a metal composition suffering from long term deterioration unknown to metallurgical science at the time - Perhaps a corrosive mix??

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

There's a lack of trust which is disconcerning, esp. seeing that this is the 21st century.

Soren that is nothing new to the 21st Century and it is a normal practice to any country in the world.

You do not sell your best and latest technology to other countries, even your allies because you do not know what is going to happen in the future.

Do you think that the Germans sell there modern U Boots with the latest technology. No they sell them with lesser technology so that they keep an edge.

As for the US and selling the F-35 with lesser avionics and technologies, that is normal and the same reason as the Germans with the U Boots.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello Soren,

That sounds very good for the Eurofighter, so please don't interfere

Regards
Kruska

Well Eurofighter & SAAB will both supply all the new upgrades when they arrive, which is the sign of trust that is needed from Lockheed, otherwise they'll remain what I'd call a suspect supplier. I mean you don't offer to sell someone something and then deny them the evolutionary upgrades, that's like giving a guy who has just bought a whole aeroplane a set of wings instead and then there you go, have fun!

Now I understand the deal with the F-22, all nations want something of their own that other nations don't have, but the deal with the F-35 is abit suspicious.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

Now I understand the deal with the F-22, all nations want something of their own that other nations don't have, but the deal with the F-35 is abit suspicious.

Why is it suspicious? Because it is the United States doing it? Read my post above Soren, all counties do it and there is a reason for it. There is nothing new about it and there is nothing suspicious about it.

[Kruska]

Hmmmm..

Not quite, Germany sold exactly the same technology to NATO partners. In the meantime the US took over the German U-boot shipyard to get that technology and they are not forwarding the latest technology to e.g. Greece. However Singapore received top notch F-15's including AIM 120's and they are demanding the same for their current F-35 involvment.

And do you seriously think that the "English Cousins" will ever pose negativley or develop to be a threat towards the USA ?

It is indeed a conceived US policy to whom to give what, unlike European ventures where off course all involved partners share the same knowhow.

So my Australian friends, don't hesitate and buy those Eurofighters and Leo 2A6.

Regards
Kruska

[Soren]

Do you think that the Germans sell there modern U Boots with the latest technology. No they sell them with lesser technology so that they keep an edge.

The Italian Navy has recieved the same Type 212A's that the German navy operates, it is Korea & Greece who have recieved the new Type 214's without some of the classified technology.

So I don't really see a comparison here, and like I said SAAB & Eurofighter will both supply the new upgrades as they arrive. Lockheed's decision not to is suspicious. Like I said I can understand the deal about the F-22, but its not for sale like the F-35 is.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

The Italian Navy has recieved the same Type 212A's that the German navy operates, it is Korea & Greece who have recieved the new Type 214's without some of the classified technology.

So I don't really see a comparison here, and like I said SAAB & Eurofighter will both supply the new upgrades as they arrive. Lockheed's decision not to is suspicious. Like I said I can understand the deal about the F-22, but its not for sale like the F-35 is.

I was referring to the Type 214. Did I ever say the Type 212? No. The 214 is based off of the 212 and is sold for export. It is basically the same as the 212 but with out the non-magnetic hull and the AIP propullsion system.

Why because you dont sell you top technology to other countries...

Again Soren, it is not a new idea and all countries do it.

Originally Posted by Kruska

" will ever pose negativley or develop to be a threat towards the USA ?

It is indeed a conceived US policy to whom to give what, unlike European ventures where off course all involved partners share the same knowhow.

Ofcourse the European Partners recieve the same technology? They designed it and worked on it together. That is completely different than say England building a new F-23000 Super Lightning (ofcourse this does not exist) and selling the there top technology to France who did not work on the project with them

So sorry that does not compare...

[Kruska]

Hello D.A.I.G.

Again Hmmmm...

The F-35 project is actually a joint venture of many countries especially NATO partners. Singapore is very much even technologywise involved. It is not a sole US project such as the F-22 or B-2 etc. etc.

I do fully understand the US position of "protectionism", which is not shared by Germany on its products to NATO or ANZUC members.

So again my dear Australians, "Think it over"

Regards
Kruska

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kruska

And do you seriously think that the "English Cousins" will ever pose negativley or develop to be a threat towards the USA ?

So my Australian friends, don't hesitate and buy those Eurofighters and Leo 2A6.

Regards
Kruska

Re the F35 the UK had the idea that the USA were concerned that the UK would develop a better version. Sounds daft I know, but we did have a track record of doing this with Helicopters and developing better weapons / systems for the F4.
The technology that the US were denying us would have stopped the UK integrating new developments into the airframe, without having to hand the whole thing over to the US for testing. This was now been resolved and we now have the access required.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello D.A.I.G.

Again Hmmmm...

The F-35 project is actually a joint venture of many countries especially NATO partners. Singapore is very much even technologywise involved. It is not a sole US project such as the F-22 or B-2 etc. etc.

I do fully understand the US position of "protectionism", which is not shared by Germany on its products to NATO or ANZUC members.

So again my dear Australians, "Think it over"

Regards
Kruska

Sorry but I find it very hard to believe that Germany does not have a position of "protectionism" and anyone who believes so is either naive or just does not wish to believe it for whatever reasons.

I will leave it at that and allow this to get back on topic...

[Soren]

I was referring to the Type 214. Did I ever say the Type 212? No. The 214 is based off of the 212 and is sold for export. It is basically the same as the 212 but with out the non-magnetic hull and the AIP propullsion system.

Why because you dont sell you top technology to other countries...

Yet the Germans gave this technology to the US, and Italy actually have 212's in service.... Like I said it is only Greece & Korea who are withheld the technology here.

Again Soren, it is not a new idea and all countries do it.

I never said it was a new idea, but not all countries do it to their close Allies.


Anyway like you said lets get back on topic.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by Soren

I mean you don't offer to sell someone something and then deny them the evolutionary upgrades, that's like giving a guy who has just bought a whole aeroplane a set of wings instead and then there you go, have fun!

Soren, you are absolutely off base on this one. The US is not selling development partners the Mk I or initial version and then abandoning them. That is pure BS, poppycock and crap. You watch too much TV my friend.

The US is not willing to share stealth development information nor software source code. Member nations are certainly allowed to purchase future revisions, but the US retains the right to keep those portions mentioned above proprietary and sovereign. To do otherwise would require the direct transfer of the technology origins.

If member nations want to have upgrades or undergo MAJOR maintenance cycles, then the US is willing to provide that as part of the purchase agreement. We are not going to provide the world with the latest physical stealth development processes and the source code for the flight controls computer/flight management computer.

Get over it. As Adler says, you guys do the same damn thing. The difference is that everyone wants a piece of the stealth pie and the US is not willing to give it up.

This doesn't mean you can't upgrade your own aircraft. You just can't change the basic core software applications without lots of reverse engineering and decrypting state secrets.

[Soren]

Huh?

Matt, Lockheed doesn't want to upgrade the JSF-35's sold to the newest blocks, that's the whole problem, and the reason behind the many doubts expressed by the many supposed buyers of the a/c. Many potential costumers are for this reason starting to prefer the Eurofighter & SAAB Gripen as their next generation fighter.

If Lockheed would but agree to upgrade the a/c to the newest blocks then this problem would be none-existant.

[Matt308]

Well if that is the interpretation, then have at the Eurofighter and Gripen. It would be an absolute shame that America's allies would turn a technical issue into political fodder.

However, I assure you that they never will. The F-35, and its upgrades, will be available to member nations. I have no worries. It's all political posturing.