Raptor vs Eurofighter

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Will it be getting the AN/APG-63 like the C model, or a different version?

According to souces, they will be getting the AN/APG-63(V)3; it is the most advanced version of the AN/APG-63. They have discontinued manufacture of the AN/APG-70. Quoted from Wikipedia:

"The APG-63(V)3 radar is a more modern variant of the APG-63(V)2, applying the same AESA technology utilized in Raytheon's APG-79. The (V)3 is designed for retrofit into F-15C and F-15E aircraft, and is also planned for use in Singapore's new F-15SG aircraft. Raytheon delivered the first prototype APG-63(V)3 system in June 2006."

[T4.H]

To answer one of the questions...

End of 2004 they made a test, one Typhoon (two seat version) against two US F15E (in dodfight). Both were outmaneuvered and simulated shot down after short time.
Eurofighter EF 2000 - Wikipedia

Next Question

Originally Posted by comiso90

Adequate for taking on the Chinese J-10.. but the MiG35 and SU-35.... I think that will be a challenge.

DERA-study: Typhoon vs. Su35 shot down ratio...4.5 SU35 to 1 Thyphoon
Eurofighter EF 2000 - Wikipedia

As I know, the Thyphoon is little bit better in al properties (or will be soon) than the Raptor with one exeption. The Raptor has better stealth properties.
Little bit longer range, better avionic, three times cheaper, passive infrared system (IRST system), much bigger load, pilots can carry a water filled anti g suit (F22 also?), much better in dogfight, shorter airfield needed, climbs faster, both have supercruise feature etc...
The F22 less or more is only a Fighter, the Typhoon can be used as a fighter and as a bomber.
Nowadays fighter-bomber are needed.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont see how a Raptor will be less effective as a fighter than the Typhoon because the Raptor has thrust vectoring which will help make it more maneuverable. Correct me if I am wrong but the Typhoon does not have thrust vectoring nor does it have stealth. F-22 is a tad bit above the Typhoon.

[plan_D]

Thanks, Stitch.

Well, the Typhoon will have AESA by 2010 - Britain's tight-fisted leadership forcing them to be behind once again.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by T4.H

Nowadays fighter-bomber are needed.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by mkloby

Many don't understand that Matt

You guys are dead on. The radar, target acquisition and lethality of the missiles are where we thought they should be when we abandoned guns prior to Viet Nam.

The dominant trends are force multipliers for existing and future technology stacks and the unmanned fighter is not far behind in context of threat horizon in 2020s.

The Raptor is king as long as Stealth and stand off capabilities are uncompromised. It's only when you get in close enough to acquire with mark one eyeballs that the ACM and pilot skill become crucial.

The F-15 can compete better against the Typhoon than the F-22 for the above reasons.

[drgondog]

Subject: fighting against an F-22 Raptor

A pilots' analysis of dog fighting against an F-22:

Sprey said his briefing focused on the time-tested factors that define an effective fighter plane:

(1) See the enemy first;

(2) outnumber the enemy;

(3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire, and

(4) kill the enemy quickly.

Having spent two weeks fighting two Raptors against 6-8 of our latest technology F-15Cs with datalink, AIM-9X, helmet mounted cueing system and the latest radar software, we



1) ... never acquired the Raptor with our radars before our eyes. We occasionally saw it in the cons at 60+K, but by that time we were already dead.



2) ... outnumbered the Raptors 3-1 or 4-1, and never even got a valid shot off on one.



3) ... found the only BFM setup even worth attempting against a Raptor is a 6K offensive setup, and you're just trying to keep from going defensive. If you're at 3K approaching a gun wez, he will stop so fast you can't help but overshoot. If you're at 9K offensive, he turns around and shoots you before you get to his turn circle. No need to even talk about when he starts offensive.



4) ... knowing the above info, killing the Raptor quickly wasn't an option, we couldn't kill even one!



I was convinced. We were even fighting some of the initial lots of airplanes, before their data links were working correctly and they had older software. I haven't fought the newer lots flown at Tyndall or Langley, but I can assure you they are even more lethal.



Sortie rates are on the rise, software stability is on the rise. All I can say to the critics is in 20 years when this airplane goes to war it will still dominate, just like the Eagle did when we employed it 18 years after fielding!

[mkloby]

Great post drgondog. Some good info from an airwarrior. T4 - I may actually print your post and use it as toilet paper.

[Matt308]

Now that was funny.

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Subject: fighting against an F-22 Raptor

A pilots' analysis of dog fighting against an F-22:

Sprey said his briefing focused on the time-tested factors that define an effective fighter plane:

(1) See the enemy first;

(2) outnumber the enemy;

(3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire, and

(4) kill the enemy quickly.

Having spent two weeks fighting two Raptors against 6-8 of our latest technology F-15Cs with datalink, AIM-9X, helmet mounted cueing system and the latest radar software, we



1) ... never acquired the Raptor with our radars before our eyes. We occasionally saw it in the cons at 60+K, but by that time we were already dead.



2) ... outnumbered the Raptors 3-1 or 4-1, and never even got a valid shot off on one.



3) ... found the only BFM setup even worth attempting against a Raptor is a 6K offensive setup, and you're just trying to keep from going defensive. If you're at 3K approaching a gun wez, he will stop so fast you can't help but overshoot. If you're at 9K offensive, he turns around and shoots you before you get to his turn circle. No need to even talk about when he starts offensive.



4) ... knowing the above info, killing the Raptor quickly wasn't an option, we couldn't kill even one!



I was convinced. We were even fighting some of the initial lots of airplanes, before their data links were working correctly and they had older software. I haven't fought the newer lots flown at Tyndall or Langley, but I can assure you they are even more lethal.



Sortie rates are on the rise, software stability is on the rise. All I can say to the critics is in 20 years when this airplane goes to war it will still dominate, just like the Eagle did when we employed it 18 years after fielding!

I had read something similar to the above a few weeks ago in an issue of Smithsonian Air & Space magazine (or Air Combat Magazine, I can't remember which); the F-15C pilots participating in the Red Flag were frustrated even though they'd been the "top dogs" of Red Flag for years.

Quote:

"When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power."

[Matt308]

The F-22 is the worlds ONLY 5th generation fighter. The capabilities of this machine have not even begun to be tapped. In fact, its inherent capabilities are so vast, that it is requiring new and novel approaches to training. The F-22 is truly changing the current air superiority doctrine.

[T4.H]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I dont see how a Raptor will be less effective as a fighter than the Typhoon because the Raptor has thrust vectoring which will help make it more maneuverable. Correct me if I am wrong but the Typhoon does not have thrust vectoring nor does it have stealth. F-22 is a tad bit above the Typhoon.

No time to go into the net and to write...

OK, second Question: ...does it have stealth.

No and yes. It has some stealth features. The radar signature has just a quarter of the size of a Panavia Tornado. They changed the air entrance, the air to air rockets are partly hided in the body and some parts are paintet with a anti radar colour.

First question: ...but the Typhoon does not have thrust vectoring...
Yes it doesn't have. The third charge perhaps will have it.
Does Thyphoon need this system?
No!
Why not?
It has canard wings. Together with the flaps of the main wing, you can fly the Typhoon like it would have a thrust vectoring system!
The F22 was constructed to be a fighter with stealth features.
The Typhoon was constructed to be the best dogfighter of the world.
Perhaps in 20 years you can construct a fighter with stealth features which is as good as a fighter without it. But not now.
And don't forget, a typhoon you can pull up with 9 g at supersonic speed.
You are a pilot, I think, you can try it onces with a F22.
I think, you understand, what I mean with onces (in your live)!


Both are realy good fighters.
The F22 has the stealth feature. The Typhoon has the better electronic systems (speach stearing of systems, newer computer systems (less work for the pilot to shoot down an aircraft) etc.), ECM systems, infrared systems to recognize a F22 (50km range), better in dogfights etc...
The F22 is just too expensive to buy it in high numbers. Against which opponent you expect to fight in the next years?
Syria? Iran? Pakistan? North Korea?
These opponents just didn't have any aircraft to win a battle against a F22 or a Typhoon. These aircrafts are superior to there opponents. It just makes no difference.
A Typhoon is perhaps 3 to 6 times cheaper than a F22.
You will never have enough F22 you will need!

I know, that the russians have realy good infrared systems. (well known found on the Mig29). And of course they have the better ejection seats . Nowadays you have to avoid the use any radar systems, passiv systems will rule the air (and also the sea). Who wants to fly as a "lighthouse" through the air? I'm not sure that the F22 will have a better (or much better) shot down ratio against a Su35 than a Typhoon.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by T4.H

The F22 has the stealth feature. The Typhoon has the better electronic systems

Prove it!

Originally Posted by T4.H

These aircrafts are superior to there opponents. It just makes no difference.
A Typhoon is perhaps 3 to 6 times cheaper than a F22.
You will never have enough F22 you will need!

Not when one could take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once. And once again you forget about the F-35 which might be just as capable as the F-22 - i suggest you do some more homework on this matter....

[Glider]

I would suggest that the main problem with the F22 is that its a victim of its own success and of course, its cost.

The few countries that can afford it (Saudi a good example) would never be allowed to buy it, the most likely country to need it, Israel, cannot be trusted with it (look at what happened to the Lavi).
Everyone else will look at the price tag, look at the threat, work out that there are alternatives, Typhoon/Rafael etc, that can deal with the threat at a much cheaper cost and go for the cheaper option.

The USA probably have enough to meet their needs but almost no one else will be able/allowed to buy it.

Good news for those employed in the Typhoon programme, bad news for those on the F22 production line, as once the US orders are fulfilled the game could be over. It would be a brave person who would bet that a new Goverment wouldn't cut the number of F22's on order and replace than with cheaper F35's, making the situation worse.

[Glider]

I forgot to add that FJ ad the others are correct, the F22 is way ahead of the opposition, even the Typhoon the key being STEALTH.

It wouldn't matter if the F22 had the performance of a dog, it you cannot see it, you cannot kill it and it can kill you.
The point is clear.