Raptor vs Eurofighter

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Glider

I would suggest that the main problem with the F22 is that its a victim of its own success and of course, its cost.

The few countries that can afford it (Saudi a good example) would never be allowed to buy it, the most likely country to need it, Israel, cannot be trusted with it (look at what happened to the Lavi).
Everyone else will look at the price tag, look at the threat, work out that there are alternatives, Typhoon/Rafael etc, that can deal with the threat at a much cheaper cost and go for the cheaper option.

The USA probably have enough to meet their needs but almost no one else will be able/allowed to buy it.

Good news for those employed in the Typhoon programme, bad news for those on the F22 production line, as once the US orders are fulfilled the game could be over. It would be a brave person who would bet that a new Goverment wouldn't cut the number of F22's on order and replace than with cheaper F35's, making the situation worse.

Glider you've hit the nail right on the head. Lockheed it doing a balancing act right now with both programs. There were a lot of mistakes made on the F-22 development and those mistakes were learned during the X-35 and that's why it ran away from its competition. Pump one program up and you're dooming the other.

[T4.H]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Prove it!

Not when one could take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once. And once again you forget about the F-35 which might be just as capable as the F-22 - i suggest you do some more homework on this matter....

We are talking about the F22 and the Typhoon...
Not about the rest of your airforce.
You will have 178 F22...
The much smaler Airforce of Germany will have 180 Typhoon (or so).
Great Britain 232...etc.

Do you realy think, the Typhoon couldn't take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once? Both aircrafts are so much better than all possible opponents...Perhaps in 30 years there will be a difference.
In war...100 have to stay at home (training, refit etc.) or somewhere else in the world...so you have perhaps 80 which you can use...
How many will be over the enemy coutryside at the same time...
10? 8? or perhaps 6? How much of the enemy country they can cover? Do they fly alone or in groups? (I would say in groups). The rest have to be repaired, to be reloded to be refilled etc. Or the pilots are waiting for there next job. And this of course only if you can start from airfields next to the enemy country.
And never forget...
Less or more, you can (or will) use the F22 only as a fighter. What you will do with this one if you have defeated all opponents?
(and again...) The Typhoon you will use as a fighter-bomber.
And before I forgot...

For me, it would be nice to have the F22. But noone needs this fighter anymore.
I would pefer to have a higher number of F35 instead (or a higher number of Typhoon).

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by T4.H

We are talking about the F22 and the Typhoon...
Not about the rest of your airforce.

Yes I realize that...

Originally Posted by T4.H

You will have 178 F22...
The much smaler Airforce of Germany will have 180 Typhoon (or so).
Great Britain 232...etc.

and again you're forgetting about the F-35.

Originally Posted by T4.H

Do you realy think, the Typhoon couldn't take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once?

Not 5 of 6 F-22s

Originally Posted by T4.H

Both aircrafts are so much better than all possible opponents...Perhaps in 30 years there will be a difference.
In war...100 have to stay at home (training, refit etc.) or somewhere else in the world...so you have perhaps 80 which you can use...
How many will be over the enemy coutryside at the same time...
10? 8? or perhaps 6?

In future war that's all that may be needed.

Originally Posted by T4.H

How much of the enemy country they can cover? Do they fly alone or in groups? (I would say in groups).

As far as supporting tankers can support...

Originally Posted by T4.H

The rest have to be repaired, to be reloded to be refilled etc. Or the pilots are waiting for there next job. And this of course only if you can start from airfields next to the enemy country.
And never forget...
Less or more, you can (or will) use the F22 only as a fighter. What you will do with this one if you have defeated all opponents?
(and again...) The Typhoon you will use as a fighter-bomber.
And before I forgot...

The F-22 has a fighter bomber capability being offered...

" For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles"

F-22 Raptor - Military Aircraft

Originally Posted by T4.H

For me, it would be nice to have the F22. But noone needs this fighter.
I would pefer to have a higher number of F35 instead (or a higher number of Typhoon).

Now there I agree....

[T4.H]

Originally Posted by Glider

I forgot to add that FJ ad the others are correct, the F22 is way ahead of the opposition, even the Typhoon the key being STEALTH.

It wouldn't matter if the F22 had the performance of a dog, it you cannot see it, you cannot kill it and it can kill you.
The point is clear.

This would be right if...

the Typhoon and the Su35 wouldn't be constructed to shoot down especially Fighters with stealth features...(infrared systems...).
Why do you think, they have somethink like this on board.

And the F35 is a nice aircraft (OK, the german airforce will never buy it, only one engine, not after the F104).
And it would be a much more nice aircraft, if any modern radar system in the world would still work on the X-band...
but they didn't.

I have to leave now.
Perhaps I will have time again to write next weekend.
I fear not.

Mfg
The Fourth Horseman

p.s.:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

" For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles"

Nice, so it can make two big holes in one attack...
Question:
Would it be enough to fight against the irak army with there thousands of tanks in the second gulf war?
(and again the first one was the Iran Irak gulf war...)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

T4.H I think you are underestimating the F-22 and its capabilities.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by T4.H

Nice, so it can make two big holes in one attack...

And sometimes that's all thats needed - BTW the F-117 carried the same load

Originally Posted by T4.H

Question:
Would it be enough to fight against the irak army with there thousands of tanks in the second gulf war?
(and again the first one was the Iran Irak gulf war...)

No - there were plenty of tanks and helicopters to take care of that and they did!!!!

But those two bombs was all that was needed to completely destroy the Iraqi military headquarters and those would been the type of targets the F-22 would take out if used in an air-to-ground role. leave the tanks to the F-35 and Apache. The Abrams' could have whats left over...

[T4.H]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

T4.H I think you are underestimating the F-22 and its capabilities.

I don't think so. But perhaps you are right.
But perhaps you overestimate the F22.

I think F22 against the Typhoon has a ratio of "only" 1 to 1.2 or 1.3...
Do you ever expect they will ever fight against each other?
And I think both aircrafts will shoot down any possible opponent at less or more the same ratio (nowadays).
Perhaps the Typhoon would be a little bit better.

And now I realy have to leave.

Mfg

The Fourth of The Four

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by T4.H

I don't think so. But perhaps you are right.
But perhaps you overestimate the F22.

I think F22 against the Typhoon has a ratio of "only" 1 to 1.2 or 1.3...
Do you ever expect they will ever fight against each other?
And I think both aircrafts will shoot down any possible opponent at less or more the same ratio (nowadays).
Perhaps the Typhoon would be a little bit better.

And now I realy have to leave.

Mfg

The Fourth of The Four

No I am not. I think the Typhoon is an excellent aircraft but the Raptor is a step above.

I honestly dont think the Typhoon is more maneuverable. The F-22 can litterally turn on a dime.

You say the Typhoon has better avionics and electical package. I dont think you can say that when you dont know the full extent of the F-22 package. None of us do. So much of the F-22 is still classified.

[plan_D]

Until 2010 when the Typhoon receives AESA; the avionic systems are not comparable - the F-22 is a mile step ahead.

[mkloby]

Seems like someone just as an issue of pride clouding his judgement. Notice Mr T4 has presented absolutely zero evidence to back up any of his claims of the Typhoon's superiority over the 22.

[T4.H]

Originally Posted by mkloby

Seems like someone just as an issue of pride clouding his judgement. Notice Mr T4 has presented absolutely zero evidence to back up any of his claims of the Typhoon's superiority over the 22.

I have no time to confirm any data. Next time (perhaps) to confirm will be next weekend. But I fear not. Just no time...not enough time...

You have to confirm it by yourself.
Most of the data you can find in...

Eurofighter EF 2000 - Wikipedia

By bad luck in german.

I found out that the English wikipedia-version is different to the German version.

I wish you a nice week.

T4.H

[FLYBOYJ]

Here....

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?

APA Analysis - F-22A Raptor

"The probability of a successful engagement can be translated into the more commonly used metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable statistical assumptions, and doing this yields about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon, 1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and 0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA simulation about half as combat effective as the F-22A, about three times as combat effective as the F-15F, about five times as effective as the Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we compare this with cited USAF claims rating the F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the DERA study roughly agrees with USAF assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to this study have not been disclosed."

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by T4.H

I have no time to confirm any data. Next time (perhaps) to confirm will be next weekend. But I fear not. Just no time...not enough time...

You have to confirm it by yourself.
Most of the data you can find in...

Eurofighter EF 2000 - Wikipedia

By bad luck in german.

I found out that the English wikipedia-version is different to the German version.

I wish you a nice week.

T4.H

And you can not use Wikipedia to confirm anything. It is one of the most unreliable sources.

In order for you to prove anything you need to find out the turn and roll radius of both aircraft. I dont think you can do that.

In order to prove that the Typhoon has a better avionics package you need to know what all is in the F-22. I know you can not do that.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Here....

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?

APA Analysis - F-22A Raptor

"The probability of a successful engagement can be translated into the more commonly used metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable statistical assumptions, and doing this yields about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon, 1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and 0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA simulation about half as combat effective as the F-22A, about three times as combat effective as the F-15F, about five times as effective as the Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we compare this with cited USAF claims rating the F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the DERA study roughly agrees with USAF assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to this study have not been disclosed."

Good article although the author seems to have a thing about Australia. The above doesn't look good for the Rafale, maybe thas why no one has bought it.

[FLYBOYJ]

He's from Australia so it had the slant....