The top 10 combat rifles

[Soren]

Well I ofcourse see what you mean Parsifal, but like you say opinions are divided and I didn't use this episode as support for all the points in my argument, just as an explanation for why the Enfield was retained and not replaced by a Mauser copy.

Fact is that most infantry combat engagements on the western front during WW2 took place at ~300m, and at this distance it didn't matter that the Mauser was a more accurate long range rifle. However during the Boer war the normal comabt engagement distances were long, and here the Mauser completely outperformed the Enfield, prompting the demand in the Royal army for a copy of the Mauser as the Enfield was found hopelessly outmatched at long ranges.


Now as to the rate of fire, well it depends on the experience of the shooter, and this is the secret behind that amazing firepower some Royal army rifle companies displayed. The British riflemen were trained to fire in continious volleys, laying down as much lead as possible and their fire was very well organized, not sporadic. The Germans relied on their MG's to lay down suppressive fire, the riflemen either assaulting to capture and hold points in the process or picking off enemies out of the MG's line of fire. In short the German riflemen weren't trained to fire in volleys, but to fire less often and more accurately.

However, in my opinion as-well as many expert's the Mauser is the best bolt action rifle in history, and for good reasons as nearly every military & commercial bolt action rifle today utilizes its design. (The Isrealies actually used K98k's as Sniper rifles up till the mid 90's)

[renrich]

re performance of 8 mm Mauser cartridge versus 3006 Springfield- From Pg 44, "Bolt Action Rifles," by Frank de Haas. The military load for the 8x57sS cartridge was a 198 grain BT bullet at 2476 FPS at nearly 50000 psi chamber pressure. de Haas's description of the cartridge: "The 8 mm Mauser is very responsive to handloading and the careful handloader having a sound M98 military or sporterized rifle can reload the case to NEARLY equal the 30 06 in performance." My caps. A load for the 30 06 using a Sierra 200 gr Matchking bullet-2600 FPS with 46730 psi chamber pressure. Since a bullet from a 3006 of the same weight and shape of the 8 mm Mauser will have a better BC, the down range performance will be somewhat better. The two cartridges are almost ballistic twins but the 3006 having a larger case capacity, it will have an edge in performance with lower chamber pressures.

[Soren]

Well that's incorrect Renrich, the larger diameter neck on the 8x57 makes sure pressures are lower at similar velocities for heavier bullets, read the loads from realguns:

Real Guns - Handload Data - 8x57mm JS Mauser

200 gr bullets are propelled to 2700 fps at pressures not exceeding 56,000 psi. And mind you the 8x57mm cartridge has a MAP of around 62,000 psi.

Furthermore the V-patr. issued by the LW fires a 198gr bullet at 2880 fps.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Soren

However, in my opinion as-well as many expert's the Mauser is the best bolt action rifle in history, and for good reasons as nearly every military & commercial bolt action rifle today utilizes its design. (The Isrealies actually used K98k's as Sniper rifles up till the mid 90's)

I had the opportunity to chat with an Israeli Sniper at least he was in 48 and 56 and he says they used the Ross Rifle

[comiso90]

It is my understanding through books, individuals, gun dealers that the Mauser model 98K is the best bolt action rifle of it's type. That being said, if I needed to outfit an Army in 1943, I'd be writing checks for the M1 Garand.


.. as long as I had the logistics in place to sustain the large waste in ammunition.

.

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[Soren]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I had the opportunity to chat with an Israeli Sniper at least he was in 48 and 56 and he says they used the Ross Rifle

Well they might have used that as-well, I don't know, but I do know that the k98k was widely used up until the mid late 90's, I have a picture of one used by the Isreali snipers below:

[renrich]

Interesting data but I am sure you would agree, somewhat misleading. As this is a discussion about military rifles and loads of WW2, quoting figures using modern powders with ultra maximum loads with excessive chamber pressures which should only be used in rifles and actions in premium condition is not relevant. The loads quoted in the source you provided are in a 29.1 inch barrel. Since most of the rifles used by the Nazis in WW2 would not necessarily meet the definition of premium condition and since the standard length of the issue rifle barrel was slightly longer than 23 inches, the service load was as I noted earlier. Also quoting ballistics from a load used by the LW, I find rather disingenuous since that load was not used in the infantry rifle. I, of course could follow suit by quoting from pg. 133, table 12 of "America's One Hundred Thousand" where the load for the 30 cal MG in American aircraft is a 220 gr. bullet at 2660 fps MV.

[Soren]

Well then Renrich did you know that the Germans used better powders during WW2 ? The Germans were firing 154 gr bullets at 2900 fps while the US were firing 150 gr bullets at 2700 fps.

And as for the LW ammunition, like I said it was used by the infantry with no problems, but mostly in MG's and by Snipers, the K98k easily handles such loads. The K98k btw has a 23.61 inch barrel, and from this barrel it will fire a 198 gr bullet at 2880 fps, without any pressure signs.

As for he American MG's firing a 220 gr bullet at 2660 fps, well this is new to me and way above any magnum load today so I find that hard to believe as American powders weren't that good back then. Was it a round nosed bullet or a Spitzer ? The powder type would be nice to know as-well.

At any rate today with modern powders the 8x57 is always faster with projectiles of 200gr or heavier, while they are the same at about 185 gr and the 30.06 being slightly faster with lighter projectiles.

[renrich]

Well, of course I should have known that the Nazis had better gun powder than anything the allies had since everything the Nazis had was superior. Thank the Lord for the Nazi inferior leadership and for their decision to send their troops into the field with an old fashioned bolt action rifle.

[Soren]

If you doubt what I'm saying research it yourself Renrich, and spare me the stupid remarks and implication that I'm a Nazi sympathizer of some sort. I don't call you a stupid Yank, or pro-american or anything like that do I ??

The Germans simply produced some more potent powder types, not a significant advance and not that it matters much if anything, but just how it is.

[Glider]

Re the quality of Ammunition
In July 1944 The German General of Infantry reported 'The normal Sm.E. ammunition allows no shooting of precision over 3-400 meters as must be demanded of Sharpshooters as these and greater ranges. Until now it was possible to equip the sharpshooter with select s.S. ammunition which is only available in small quantaties, or not at all.
He then went on to demand the the production of specialist ammunition for Sharpshooters which came on stream in early 1945

Compared this to the British situation. The British were happy that the quality control of their standard type VII ammunition was sufficient for all purposes, although it must be said that the men tended to prefer one manufacturer over another and most went for American manufacturers.

source is The Military Sniper since 1914 ISBN-10 1-84176-141-9

This would indicate that German ammunition was worse than allied ammuition although closer to British ammo than American.

[Soren]

I don't know where that book gets its info from or anything but some of it is true;

The S.m.E. round is the round designed to be fired by the MG's Glider, it's an AP round firing a completely similar projectile to the S.m.K. except optimized for MG's. The S.m.E. round wasn't meant to be fired through the K98k as the K98k was optimized for the s.S. round, so obviuosly firing the S.m.E through the K98k you wont get the best results.

However also note that Snipers wouldn't want to switch between different ammo types as their rifle & scopes were designed & calibrated for the s.S. Patr.. German Sniper scopes had built in range adjustment, with range adjusted in 50m increments, and this was based on the ballistics of the s.S. Patr.. Now firing s.S. V-patr. wasn't a problem as one just had to keep in mind that the trajectory was flatter, however using MG ammunition such as the S.m.E. round with different projectiles & powder charges would affect accuracy as both the rifle & scope were designed & calibrated for an entirely different round & projectile.

Next there was no "Specialized" Sniper ammo, the German Snipers however sometimes "borrowed" high power s.S. V-patr. from the LW to gain an extra 150m of effective range. So when the quote refers to specialized ammo for snipers it refers to the production of s.S. Patr. for Snipers only in 45 which otherwise had ceased.

And as for the the quality of German rounds (s.S., S.m.E., S.m.K. etc etc) it's excellent (I have these rounds myself, they're all better made than equal time period US & British ammo). Esp. German tracers are very well made.


The German standard sS (schweres Spitzgeschoß/heavy pointed bullet) ball bullet was 35.3 mm long (1.389 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made.[2] It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed about 12.8 grams (197 grains). It offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and ballistic performance of all standard rifle balls used in World War II.

German tracer bullets were the best put out by any country, beautifully streamlined and with excellent ballistics. German armor piercers were also very good, being very stable and accurate at long ranges.

The most accurate rifle round of WW2 was the s.S. Patr., and it was therefore also prefered by Snipers. However it is true that this round as in short supply by mid 1944, and this did prompt an increase in production of it for use by Snipers only.

I recommend reading Peter Senich's book on the German sniper which notes this as-well.

[Soren]

Double post.

[Messy1]

Not trying to start any quarrels or anything, just had a question. When everyone starts pulling info out of various books, and when the info counteracts each other poeples statements, how do you know which book is correct and which one is not? If one book states ammo #1 is better, and another book states ammo #2 is better, how do you go about proving which one is the correct statement?
It seems that everyone is of the opinion that their book has the correct info, how do you solve the problem? In reading through this topic, it seems various people have listed different info from several books to support their views. Just curious.

[Soren]

What sources listed disagree with each other ?