TSR-2 - "Perfect example for unmasterable technology and mismanagement?"

Glider · 07-03-2007, 12:56 PM

Any French participants in this topic, nope, didn't think so.

The Basket · 07-03-2007, 01:22 PM

So what was the Starfighter crisis all about all about and how did they fix it?

Obviously the Starfighter was a better interceptor than a Buccaneer but the Bucc was still a better low level ship killer.

FLYBOYJ · 07-03-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Basket

So what was the Starfighter crisis all about all about and how did they fix it?

Some Airforces (Germany) lost about a third of their F-104s. Training was the key. The T-38 helped as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Basket

Obviously the Starfighter was a better interceptor than a Buccaneer but the Bucc was still a better low level ship killer.

True, the Bucc was designed as an attack aircraft to begin with. The F-104 mutated into that role.

CRASHGATE3 · 07-03-2007, 01:47 PM

Hi Henning
I'm sorry my post wasn't very clear on the Bucanneer...I think the other posts have put that right

Glider · 07-03-2007, 04:26 PM

Be a bit hard for the Bucc to be used as a fighter as it didn't carry any air to air weapons until very late in its life.

On a more objective point, in its element i.e. at very low level, almost nothing could catch the Bucc. On a regular basis the only plane that could catch it on the deck was the F111.

Graeme · 07-03-2007, 04:36 PM

You could start a new thread on these machines- the list is almost endless. The BAC TSR-2 is certainly one of the most 'vocal' example of history not wanting to 'let it go'. You could change a ceiling light bulb with a pile of books/magazines lamenting the demise of the TSR-2. But there are others, and they can all argue that they deserved a 'chance'.

As mentioned, another loud member is the Avro CF-105.
Then there's the North American F-108 Rapier.
North American XB-70
Hawker P.1121 Hurricane
Saunders-Roe SR.177
Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III
Saunders-Roe SR-45 Princess
Republic XF-103
Avro Canada C-102
and the Vickers Valiant B Mk 2, just to complete a random ten.

pbfoot · 07-03-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

Be a bit hard for the Bucc to be used as a fighter as it didn't carry any air to air weapons until very late in its life.

On a more objective point, in its element i.e. at very low level, almost nothing could catch the Bucc. On a regular basis the only plane that could catch it on the deck was the F111.

I do believe all the Bucc would see of a 104 would be the black smoke outta that J79.

Glider · 07-03-2007, 05:12 PM

Not on the deck. The first Red Flag sorties were a revalation to the US forces facing the Bucc for the first time. F4's and F5's couldn't normally catch them and the A4 didn't have a chance. In Europe the Mirage and F104G normally failed as well.

The Bucc was flown 'clean' having an internal bomb bay and the opposing aircraft hampered by Drop tanks, external missiles ect had a hard time catching them.

pbfoot · 07-03-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

Not on the deck. The first Red Flag sorties were a revalation to the US forces facing the Bucc for the first time. F4's and F5's couldn't normally catch them and the A4 didn't have a chance. In Europe the Mirage and F104G normally failed as well.

The Bucc was flown 'clean' having an internal bomb bay and the opposing aircraft hampered by Drop tanks, external missiles ect had a hard time catching them.

During RED Flag they never got any of our 104's in fact during the last sortie of the 104 at Red Flag they actually told the the defending force direction and time over target and still managed to get in and out

The Basket · 07-03-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

Not on the deck. The first Red Flag sorties were a revalation to the US forces facing the Bucc for the first time. F4's and F5's couldn't normally catch them and the A4 didn't have a chance. In Europe the Mirage and F104G normally failed as well.

The Bucc was flown 'clean' having an internal bomb bay and the opposing aircraft hampered by Drop tanks, external missiles ect had a hard time catching them.

Absolutely. Fly 20ft at 645mph and the only Starfighter is going to be behind you, in afterburner running out of fuel! Range was just excellent too.

SoD Stitch · 07-03-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

Not on the deck. The first Red Flag sorties were a revalation to the US forces facing the Bucc for the first time. F4's and F5's couldn't normally catch them and the A4 didn't have a chance. In Europe the Mirage and F104G normally failed as well.

The Bucc was flown 'clean' having an internal bomb bay and the opposing aircraft hampered by Drop tanks, external missiles ect had a hard time catching them.

Actually, I read that the then brand-new F-15's couldn't even score a kill on a Bucc! I'll do some more reserach on that, but I don't think the vaunted F-15A even picked them up on radar during the whole excercise.

lesofprimus · 07-03-2007, 05:32 PM

That I find extremely hard to believe..

pbfoot · 07-03-2007, 05:51 PM

I'll include this little blurb and then you can comment on the range etc

Unhke most fighters, the 104's range didn't suffer greatly at low altitude. Carrying one bomb, a strike pilot could fly 400 miles, littering the countryside with fuel tanks as they emptied. The photo pod slung under the belly of the recce aircraft looked rather lumpy but was nicely streamlined and caused little drag. The attack conversion was not as successful because external fuel tanks couldn't be carried, the pylons had bombs or rockets. We lost a little more fuel when the Vulcan cannon -was installed, replacing a small fuel cell.
Since its inception and particularly in Europe, the 104 had been unfairly tagged -with a bad reputation. A German joke of the 1960s went: "How does one acquire a Starfighter? One buys
a small piece of land and waits."
Touring journalists always got around to asking about crashes and how dangerous the aircraft was. I confess they were often misled at the mess bar. We would fake grim cheerfulness and drop such names as "wid-
owmaker" or, even more ridiculous, "aluminum death tube and, sure enough we d be quoted. The clippings were all gleefully passed around the squadrons. Most of us enjoyed the notoriety, at least a little, and felt squarer of jaw and steelier of eye. Only supermen could fly such a killer airplane; it said so right in the Elk Pasture Times Weekly.
In fact, our safety record was comparable to that of any other aircraft in the same role. Most 104 accidents were a product of that role. Low-level, high-speed flying allowed little margin for error, and errors were often catastrophic.
But the CF-104 wasn't a shady lady. She just worked in a tough neighborhood.

FLYBOYJ · 07-03-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

But the CF-104 wasn't a shady lady. She just worked in a tough neighborhood.

Perfect!

pbfoot · 07-03-2007, 06:54 PM

Further to watching the 6 oclock of the 104 it was capanle of 940 knots at sea level the bucc could get up 562 at sea level or 600 at altitude and I can't help but add this little blurb from the 1978 RAF Yearbook

" The Aggressors were tasked against us more, and they pulled in the F-15 Eagle with its ultra-modern look-down radar to try to redress the balance; from day five onwards, the odd claims were verified against the Buccaneers."
.