UK military deaths in Afganistan hit 100

[Haztoys]

If you think that at some point we would not have to fight these mad basters in the sand of the Mid East ...............OR A FOOL...

Do some of you real think you can reason with these people....???..

The West put them on the map and found and set up there oil world..And they hate us...

We do it now or are kids and grand kids will have to... The longer we wate the stronger the groups get...

Osama Bin Laden is a business man...He had a job and a team of workers that there job was to fight the USSR...And when the USSR were gone from Afghanistan he and his employees had no work..No money no food..So he finds a new line of work for him and his "Company".. Attack the US...9-11 was a business move ...

I'm a Fabrication shop owner..Lots of trick cars and bikes ..Do a lot of rally car work ..If the cars and bikes dry up ... I'll do aircraft fab or metal fab for pots and pans or....What ever needs to be welded.. Do to I still have to eat and pay the bills...

The same with Osama Bin Laden Inc.....

[parsifal]

How does going into Afghanistan, and killing a whole s*itload of people bring back the 3000 people who died in 9-11. How does causing grief to 50000 families in the middle east make us more secure. Do you think these people can be browbeaten, do think these people can be made to fear us. All we are doing is make them hate us.

I do care what happens to my kids and my grandkids. thats why i am opposed to the war. I want them to live in a safer world, not one where every time they see a guy with a rag on his head, they start to worry.

Unless we are going to kill every person of middle eastern persuasion, this is not a war we are going to win.

And one final thing...how many insurgnecies have the americans actually won. i cant think of any. How many has Australia "won". None as well, but unlike the Americans, our involvement in Malaya, Borneo, Timor, the Solomons, and New Guinea, have all ended with our nationals being able to return to those countries without living in fear of their lives. The trick, if you want to call it that, is respect.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by parsifal

How does going into Afghanistan, and killing a whole s*itload of people bring back the 3000 people who died in 9-11.

It stopped those who did 9-11 from doing it again - simple....

[parsifal]

It stopped those who did 9-11 from doing it again - simple


Oh come on, you cant be serious. There are 88 dead Australians, dead Englishmen in the subway, and dead spaniards on their public transport system that say you are wrong.

I am not some card carrying liberal. if I saw a clear strategy with defined goals, and a finite program I would say, lets go kick some islamic arse. But ther is no plan, no program, no goal. All we are doing is sweeping SS style through the streets and valleys of these countries making enormous and long term enemies of every one of them, we do this because the footprint we are leaving is too heavy no matter how light we tread.

To win this war, I believe we have to separate the extremists from the main stream. Given that the majority of the extremists come from one of the most repressive regimes the world has ever seen, Saudi Arabia, the key starting point is to do something in that country. But the US is never going to do that, and the reasons are obvious. Because we wont do what should and has to be done, we should not be there at all. All we are doing is getting a lot of people killed, and making a lot of enemies that will last for centuries along the way

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, we went ther because we were after Bin Laden, but we managed to f*ck that up good and proper. Instead of throwing him in gaol, he got away, made us look like fools, and is now a martyr for his cause. in 100 years the Islamics will look back on Bin Laden as a hero...in two years they will not even remember the names of the Allied commanders

Face it, the whole "war on terror" has been one gigantic stuff up one after the other, what we need is a Bismarck to get our heads out of our collective arses,, and indulge in a dose of realpolitik for a while

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by parsifal

How does going into Afghanistan, and killing a whole s*itload of people bring back the 3000 people who died in 9-11. How does causing grief to 50000 families in the middle east make us more secure. Do you think these people can be browbeaten, do think these people can be made to fear us. All we are doing is make them hate us.

.

Using your logic we should nto have gone to war with Germany in WW2. How did it bring back 6,000,000 Jews, and 70,000,000 other people?

Come one now...

[parsifal]

No Adler, if you used my logic you would see the difference. With Germany, the plan, the solution was to defeat Germany, in the field of battle. that way all the bad things that you mention went away.

In this situation, there is no country, no field of battle, nothing to defeat. How do you fight an enemy that blends in so well with the innocent population that surrounds it. You certainly dont start attacking that surrounding society, unless you intend to massacre that entire society. The answer lies in stripping away that society from supporting the evil core that lives amongst it. Exactly how that is to be achieved, Im not sure, but it sure aint by the way we are doing things right now

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by parsifal

It stopped those who did 9-11 from doing it again - simple


Oh come on, you cant be serious. There are 88 dead Australians, dead Englishmen in the subway, and dead spaniards on their public transport system that say you are wrong.

Were there any Afghanistan based Al Qaeda attacks against the US since 9-11?????? - NO.

I rest my case.....

[Kruska]

Hello FLYBOY,

I am sure it was not your intension to forward that the US is keeping away the war from its own country but rather to project it to somewhere else. And unfortunately this is actually happening. Since 9/11 about 1200 ISAF and Pakistani soldiers got killed – not to mention the thousands of Afghan and Pakistan civilians. And as you know this statistic doesn’t include more than 150,000 soldiers and civilians who have been killed in Iraq so far.

This is indeed a heavy price for 3000+ killed in 9/11, (one could also term it as "grossly disproportionate") and it also shows that it does not solve the situation but is actually worsening it. As I forwarded in an earlier post, I disagree with Iraq and I support the initial counterattack on Afghanistan, but indeed it did not help to solve or to safeguard the non Muslim population or the Westerners on this planet.

Regards
Kruska

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello FLYBOY,

I am sure it was not your intension to forward that the US is keeping away the war from its own country but rather to project it to somewhere else. And unfortunately this is actually happening.

Actually I am to a point - personally my concern is with 1. the USA, 2. our allies, 3. the "Western World."

Originally Posted by Kruska

Since 9/11 about 1200 ISAF and Pakistani soldiers got killed – not to mention the thousands of Afghan and Pakistan civilians. And as you know this statistic doesn’t include more than 150,000 soldiers and civilians who have been killed in Iraq so far.

Unfortunately that's the price being paid for the division in the muslim world or a piece of it, that being Iraq. When Saddam Hussein was taken down there was a great opportunity for the Iraqi people to take control of their destiny. Instead the country fractured into conflicting divisions because of a lack of right type of leadership to keep a country like Iraq in check - and I hate to say it, it seems the answer to this is a brutal dictator. It's pretty sad when the only way to control a region of people is through a brutal dictator........

Originally Posted by Kruska

This is indeed a heavy price for 3000+ killed in 9/11, (one could also term it as "grossly disproportionate") and it also shows that it does not solve the situation but is actually worsening it. As I forwarded in an earlier post, I disagree with Iraq and I support the initial counterattack on Afghanistan, but indeed it did not help to solve or to safeguard the non Muslim population or the Westerners on this planet.

It is a heavy price but look at the people you're dealing with. We could leave the region right now and they'll fight among themselves and they'll be another 100,000 soldiers and civilians killed. The Clerics that are in the region survive on hatred and war. Personally I don't care. I don't care if they hate the US, the rest of the western world or you and I. When they project that hatred beyond their borders, well then I have a problem.

This discussion needs to be separated into the two conflicts. Right now Afghanistan is at a turning point and if the pressure is not effectively kept up against those in that region that wants to project their hatred towards the west and use that country as a staging point you will be seeing more attacks aganist targets in the west. Iraq in my view a different situation. My feeling is Saddam Hussein needed to go - but once he was gone so should of the US forces that were there and the emphasis placed in Afghanistan. By placing our forces into a "police action" it created the very thing that Bush and his buddies wanted to prevent.

[parsifal]

FB

On the basis of your last postback to me, the rest of us should get the hell out of dodge, and let the US achieve its security its own way, and we should secure ours our way. I find your complete lack of concern for the security of your allies disturbing. Australia has backed the US 100% in this war, and virtually every other war since WWII. Is this how your countrymen intend to treat your allies in the future..."so long as the good ol USA is safe, we dont give a S*it!!!". Is that how it is from now on. I know that it isnt, but the attitudes expressed in your post, if adopted as US policy would lead to that. What is disturbing , and normal, is the failure of the US to even listen to any advice or concerns from even its true allies. They just charge at the issue blindly and unthinking, and then expect the rest of the world to follow. And i doubt that many in the US realize (or care) the serious and deep damage this approach is causing in its partners. Australia has recently completed its final pullout from Iraq. Nothing gets said, but I can assure you that Australians are bitterly dissappointed in the leadership shown by the US over this issue. And your allies dont get much closer than Australia. Your country's failure to listen is costing you all of your overseas alliances. Can the US achieve its security alone???

And this approach fails to look at the issue objectively. I dont think US security is being enhanced in any meaningful way at all. It is a false sense of security. Far from it. I think the world is filling with despisement of the US and its alliance every day that this is happening, and after we leave, as eventually we must, the terror to our own shores will return tenfold worse than it ever was.

Successful counterinsurgency, IMO does not succeed by increasing the body count. Thats just a byproduct, and one that should be avoided if possible (because it inevitably generates further resentament and conflict if the casualties are innocent). The US is finally starting to get that, but i think it is far too late now.

This war is not quite a classic counterinsurgency, which leads me to admit that I dont quite know exactly how to deal with it. At its heart is pure evil, IMO. It cannot be reasoned with, and has as its agenda, a desire to kill anything that opposes its warped values. Fear, does not appear to influence it. People that believe in it are religiously driven. The recruitment grounds for its personnel seem to be rooted in the economic and social sense of hopelessness that exist for many Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Having admitted that, the best overall strategy against a creed of that nature is to starve it of its human resources, in other words to make it a better option for the people in its recruitment areas to do other things (like make money) rather than martyr oneself for Allah.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Actually I am to a point - personally my concern is with 1. the USA, 2. our allies, 3. the "Western World."

This makes sense to anyone, and therefore the "allies" tend to react negativly/sceptical the moment the US is trying to forward an issue as a "common goal" under US leadership.

Unfortunately that's the price being paid for the division in the muslim world or a piece of it, that being Iraq. When Saddam Hussein was taken down there was a great opportunity for the Iraqi people to take control of their destiny. Instead the country fractured into conflicting divisions because of a lack of right type of leadership to keep a country like Iraq in check - and I hate to say it, it seems the answer to this is a brutal dictator. It's pretty sad when the only way to control a region of people is through a brutal dictator........

This is were the "smart alecs" - such as myself - come in. The Europeans knew about the Iraq "mentality or habitus" that only an institution such as the Baath Party - headed by Hussein - was able to control all these factions. Therefore they oposed the war against Hussein, setting their strategy on diplomatic actions which in the end could have changed Husseins attitude or replaced him peacefully with a less ambitious dictator - but most important to keep the Baath party alive and in power.

Would it be so difficult for the Americans to face the fact, that it was the Bush clans greed for a multi – billion $$$ deal in regards to oil, that made him relentlessly push and propagate an immediate war instead of pushing politics with a non-willing oil signatory such as Hussein.

It is a heavy price but look at the people you're dealing with. We could leave the region right now and they'll fight among themselves and they'll be another 100,000 soldiers and civilians killed. The Clerics that are in the region survive on hatred and war. Personally I don't care. I don't care if they hate the US, the rest of the western world or you and I. When they project that hatred beyond their borders, well then I have a problem.

You are forwarding this now, since obviously any American is getting piss..of at the present situation - with no answer to its ending.

This discussion needs to be separated into the two conflicts.

Totally agreed

Right now Afghanistan is at a turning point and if the pressure is not effectively kept up against those in that region that wants to project their hatred towards the west and use that country as a staging point you will be seeing more attacks aganist targets in the west.

It is at a military turning point, but only due to the presence of the ISAF. If the allied victory powers would have pulled out from Germany in 1950 without having set the political basis and economic help for a "thriving Germany" and neglected the fact that all former Nazis are still under arms and even control large areas of Germany in military point of view and idiology, what would have happened?

By placing our forces into a "police action" it created the very thing that Bush and his buddies wanted to prevent.

Since I do not want to heat up this discussion unnecessarily into a political issue - I will accept this viewpoint as being your personal opinion Every Middle East analyst knew exactly that this situation would follow after the attack on Iraq.

Regards
Kruska

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Can the US achieve its security alone???

If the respective US government would be willing/able to carry the consequences in regards to US casualties and financial burden – and the latter would severely cut down her economic position, yes the US could indeed achieve its own security, such as the Europeans could at the same expenses.

Successful counterinsurgency, IMO does not succeed by increasing the body count. Thats just a byproduct, and one that should be avoided if possible (because it inevitably generates further resentament and conflict if the casualties are innocent). The US is finally starting to get that, but i think it is far too late now.

Presently the US have maneuvered themselves into a Israel – Palestine scenario, taking the part of Israel but with no additional US power behind them. Therefore they need the assistance of the Europeans - but both are to nationalistic and egoistic about their own concerns and positions.

Having admitted that, the best overall strategy against a creed of that nature is to starve it of its human resources, in other words to make it a better option for the people in its recruitment areas to do other things (like make money) rather than martyr oneself for Allah.

Yes, as I forwarded many times; it all comes back to $ and cents.

IMO the Europeans in majority rather contribute their resources into a balanced budget between economical assistance and Defense budget rather then allocating the $$$ in majority into Arms contracts. But maybe it is the election campaining style in the US, that makes a US President and his party "obliged" towards his sponsers by far more then in contra to Europe.

Regards
Kruska

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by parsifal

No Adler, if you used my logic you would see the difference. With Germany, the plan, the solution was to defeat Germany, in the field of battle. that way all the bad things that you mention went away.

In this situation, there is no country, no field of battle, nothing to defeat. How do you fight an enemy that blends in so well with the innocent population that surrounds it. You certainly dont start attacking that surrounding society, unless you intend to massacre that entire society. The answer lies in stripping away that society from supporting the evil core that lives amongst it. Exactly how that is to be achieved, Im not sure, but it sure aint by the way we are doing things right now

No parisifal, we had to do something. If that something was fighting the people who were/are harboring the terrorists that did 9-11, then so be it.

Maybe it will take an attack on your homeland to make you realize how we feel about it. Of course I dont wish that upon your people...

Originally Posted by parsifal

Is this how your countrymen intend to treat your allies in the future..."so long as the good ol USA is safe, we dont give a S*it!!!".

What the **** are you talking about? Now you are just getting downright insulting...

The US will allways stand by her allies and you ****ing now it, so dont go there.

[parsifal]

Adler

There have been attempts in Australia at several terrorist acts, including a half baked plot to blow up our National parliament building.

However, terrorists have already targetted Australians in Bali, more or less a home away from home, resulting in the deaths of 88 Australians. We lost a lot of people in 9-11as well (about 60 from memory). So Australians already have had a fair share of suffering, and have very strong feelings about the dangers of terrorism. We dont need to be motivated further to try and do something, but there is an increasing voice of concern about how the socalled war on terror is being prosecuted. The "british model" has a demonstrated track record of success in counterinsurgency, an approach not even considered by the Americans since the end of WWII. Whilst the various crises confronted by the british are pale in comparison to those faced by the US, the US has had virtually no success in counterinsurgenecy work, whilst the CW forces have had considerable (if on a minor scale)

As for the post about America not caring, if you read the whole post, you will see that I am responding to FBs apparent flippant statement about "its okay because America hasnt been attacked since 9-11", which drew a sharp response from both Kruska and myself, to the effect that there have been a large number of attacks outside the US since 9-11. The comments by FB appeared to look like it was okay so long as the US is not in the firing line.

Also, if you read my full post youo will see that I did say (along the lines) " I know this is NOT US Policy...but" I certainly was not intending to be insulting, just pointing out that FBs apparent position was disturbing

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Would it be so difficult for the Americans to face the fact, that it was the Bush clans greed for a multi – billion $$$ deal in regards to oil, that made him relentlessly push and propagate an immediate war instead of pushing politics with a non-willing oil signatory such as Hussein.

Well show us where all that oil is - it sure ain't coming out of Iraq and it sure ain't coming here!!!