Question about air formation sizes and other information

Fleck02 · 10-11-2007, 03:51 AM

First post ever, I am an author of Short Stories (and an ex-Australian Army medic 1976-79), I am writing some "Alternate History" - a favourite of mine. I need to know squadron, wing and group sizes (I only know those references) of the following:

In 1985, F15's flying out of Germany, I need an excuse to have at least 30-35 fully armed for air to air combat F15C's flying about 100km to the south-east of Berlin - what size formation would that be.

In 1945, about 700 B-17G's escorted by P51(D's ???) - how many? Bombing Berlin (or maybe anther target), being jumped by ME-109's, FW-190's and ME-262's.

Obviously the F-15's jump on the defendng Germans - would the F-15's be able to listen to the tactical frequencies?

Lastly, is there any records of bombing activities so for accuracy, I can hone in on a real raid - for reality.

Lastly, were A-10 Thundebolt II's ever stationed in Europe? I thought a couple of strafing runs by a couple of squadrons over the German Lines in WWI at the Battle of Verdun.

Any help would be appreciated, I just need knowledge that I can't seem to find.

Alan

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-11-2007, 11:38 AM

I will get my sources out when I get home and give you a definate answer on what I can in a few hours when i get off from work. Until then here is off the top of my head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleck02

In 1985, F15's flying out of Germany, I need an excuse to have at least 30-35 fully armed for air to air combat F15C's flying about 100km to the south-east of Berlin - what size formation would that be.

There were F-15s based out of Hahn AFB, Spangdalam AFB, and I believe Rammstein AFB in Germany. There are still F-15s at Spandalam I believe. I also believe there were some at Bitburg AFB (not sure if that is the actual name of the AFB though).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flek02

Lastly, were A-10 Thundebolt II's ever stationed in Europe? I thought a couple of strafing runs by a couple of squadrons over the German Lines in WWI at the Battle of Verdun.

Any help would be appreciated, I just need knowledge that I can't seem to find.

Alan

Yes A-10s were stationed as well at Spandalam and Rammstein. I will get your a deffinate answer to squadon numbers and exact locations in a few hours.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-11-2007, 01:59 PM

Allright here is what I have (I am not sure on time frames that aircraft were in Europe however):

A-10's based in Europe:

Squadron - Location

81st TFW - RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge, England
81st TFW - Ahlhorn AFB, Leipheim AFB, Norvenich AFB, and Sembach AFB - West Germany

(Wing was split among several locations in Germany and England with each location having about 8 to 10 A-10s).

F-15's based in Europe:

36th TFW - Bitburg AFB, West Germany

Other aircraft that might be of interest for your stories:

F-16's based out of Europe:

50th TFW - Hahn AFB, West Germany
86th TFW - Ramstein AFB, West Germany
401st TFW - Torrejon AFB, Spain

F-111's based in Europe:

20th TFW - RAF Upper Heyford, England
48th TFW - RAF Lakenheath, England

F-4 Phantoms based in Europe:

52nd TFW - Spangdhlem AFB, West Germany
[b]86th TFW[b] - Ramstein AFB, West Germany (Replaced by F-16Cs by 1987)

Alltogether around this time there were the following aircraft stationed as part of US Airforce Europe:

3rd AF at various bases in England

76 F-111E
85 F-111F
42 EF-111A
120 A-10
36 RF-4C
18 F-5E
16 C-130
29 KC-135
4 EC-135
4 KC-10
Several SR-71 and TR-1's

16th AF in Spain (later moved to Italy in 1990 I believe)

72 F-16C
Several KC-135 and C-130's

Italy

1 Group of F-16s and F-4s on constant rotation from other bases in Europe.

Turkey

1 Squadron of F-16s on concstant rotation from other bases in Europe

Iceland

1 Squadron of F-15s on constant rotation from other bases in Europe

17th AF at various bases in West Germany

2 Wings (aprox 144 aircraft) consisting of KC-135, MC-130E, and C-130's.
18 RF-4C
90 F-16C
18-30 F-4G
64 F-15
18 C-23
4 C-9A
Large number of CH-53C, C-130E, UH-1N, UH-1H, C-12A, T-39, VC-140B, C-140, OV-10A, C-5 and C-141s.

Hope this helps you some.

Njaco · 10-11-2007, 06:24 PM

As far as bomber raids during 1945, a good book to give you reference would be "Battles With The Luftwaffe" by Theo Boiten and Martin Bowman.

Such as -

March 15, 1945 - 1353 bombers escorted by 833 fighters attacked German Army HQ at Zossen near Berlin.

Lot of battles in March against Fw 190s, Bf 109s and Me 262s.

Fleck02 · 10-13-2007, 12:24 PM

Thanks for the information guys - I am using the raid by Niaco as the raid, from what I have read about the F-15C radar sets, those numbers will make it fun - would they have overloaded it? Also, still need to know the size of formations - really only for the F-15's now. How many aircraft in a Squadron? What is the next formation up - a wing - how many squadrons in a wing, I know the British numbers from WW2, but not the 1980's US formations. BTW - name of of a AFB in Italy is needed, preferably something close to Rome, I have the F-15's taking off from Ramstein, but I need a destination.

Thanks for the A-10 information, ten aircraft should be enough to wreak havoc.

Thankyou so much for your help, my story has really taken off, when I am finished I am looking for a volunteer or volunteers to read it to let me know on the accuracy of the story (I recently had a professor of history read a story on a photographic mission to film history - he thought I did a good job, picked two errors, but accuracy is essential).

All the best

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-13-2007, 12:39 PM

Well as far as the 80s is concerned if you are going to historically accurate there were no F-15s at Ramstein AFB.

As for an AFB in Italy you could use Aviano.

I might be wrong but I believe that a USAF Squadon consists of 3 to 4 flights of aircraft and 7 to 16 aircraft in total.

A Wing consists of aprox. 3-10 Squadrons and aprox. 21 to 48 aircraft.

A Group consists of aprox. 2 Wings and aprox. 48 to 100 aircraft.

Njaco · 10-13-2007, 12:57 PM

I think you'll find alot of volunteer book readers here.

Fleck02 · 10-14-2007, 01:20 AM

Guys, this is great. So if there were no F-15's at Ramstein - where were they?

I figure that I am going to have a wing flying the border, seeing what they can get up to make sure that they don't intrude - gives me a good excuse to have them fully armed with drop tanks.

Anyone in this forum will be welcome to read it for comment. My only problem is getting it into 5,000 words.

Again - many thanks

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-14-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleck02

Guys, this is great. So if there were no F-15's at Ramstein - where were they?

As I posted up there in the thread listing squadon numbers and locations. F-15s were located in Bitburg AFB in Germany.

Fleck02 · 10-15-2007, 03:23 AM

Oops, I forgot to look - many thanks.

comiso90 · 10-15-2007, 08:56 PM

If you're looking for additional tension... The US had mobile, nuclear BGM-109 Cruise missiles stationed in Florense, Belgium and Sicily.

As we used to say, "BGM-109 rocks Moscow hit after hit!"

If you need a place for the good guys to hit, The Fulda Gap was always on the list of places likely for a clash.

Fulda Gap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-16-2007, 09:21 AM

I also believe there Pershing Missiles still stationed in Germany during the 80s.

DBII · 10-17-2007, 09:48 AM

Sounds like fun. Will be be able to read about the battle? Have you seen the movie Final Countdown? The Nimtz gets transported to 1941. The Captain lauches F14s against the Zeros.

I was stationed at Fulda 84 - 87. The Pershings where located in western Germany, somewhere west of Frankfurt. I worked with a launch officer for a couple of weeks. He would always joke that his war plan was to drive to France and set up at a Pub. The A-10 were working out of England. We had them for CAS missions all of the time. The Germans would also assign Alpha jets to work CAS missions. I always thought that they were a little small.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-17-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBII

I was stationed at Fulda 84 - 87. The Pershings where located in western Germany, somewhere west of Frankfurt.

Yeah they were in the west as you say. There were several near where I lived back in the 80s west of Stuttgart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBII

The A-10 were working out of England. We had them for CAS missions all of the time. The Germans would also assign Alpha jets to work CAS missions. I always thought that they were a little small.

The A-10s Wing was based out of England but they had 8 to 10 aircraft assigned to several bases in Germany at all times.