ACLU Threaten to Sue Naval Academy - Aircraft of World War II

ccheese · 06-26-2008, 09:26 AM

There was an article in this morning's Virginian Pilot that the ACLU has
threatened to sue the US Naval Academy over the noontime prayer. One
female graduate, who refused to give her name, stated she was forced to
participate in the noontime prayer, even tho she is agnostic. She declined
to give her name for fear it would affect her naval career. The Navy has
declined to comment.

I have checked the on line news services but can't find any more info.

Anyone have anything to add ?

Charles

RabidAlien · 06-26-2008, 09:39 AM

Nothing I have to add would be polite. The ACLU are just a bunch of morons sticking their noses in where they're not wanted.

ToughOmbre · 06-26-2008, 10:14 AM

How about this.....

F*** the ACLU and the horse they rode in on!

TO

ToughOmbre · 06-26-2008, 10:18 AM

From the Baltimore Sun

ACLU threatens to take legal action against Academy

By Josh Mitchell | Sun reporter
June 26, 2008

A national civil liberties group is renewing a push to end mealtime prayer at the U.S. Naval Academy, where a group of midshipmen recently complained to officials that they felt pressured to participate in the longtime practice.

The tradition, believed to date back to the college's founding in 1845, now involves a chaplain's leading grace before a noon meal that all 4,200 midshipmen must attend at King Hall. Midshipmen are not required to pray, though they must stand during the recital, and most bow their heads.

Nine students recently approached the American Civil Liberties Union for help in getting the academy to end the practice. In a letter recently sent to the academy's superintendent, Vice Adm. Jeffrey L. Fowler, the ACLU threatened legal action.

"The government should not be in the business of compelling religious observance, particularly in military academies, where students can feel coerced by senior students and officials and risk the loss of leadership opportunities for following their conscience," Deborah A. Jeon, legal director for the ACLU of Maryland, wrote.

The academy has rejected various requests by the ACLU and other civil liberties groups to end the practice, and a college spokesman said yesterday that its position remains the same.

"The Academy does not intend to change its practice of offering Midshipmen an opportunity for prayer or devotional thought during noon meal announcements," the spokesman, Cmdr. Ed Austin, said in a statement. He said college officials are "coordinating our response with Department of the Navy leadership and will be responding to the ACLU soon."

The ACLU's latest push in Annapolis renews questions about the role of religion at the nation's military colleges.

In 2003, a federal appeals court struck down suppertime prayer at the Virginia Military Institute as a violation of church-state separation.

Two years later, the Air Force Academy faced charges of proselytizing by college personnel and cadets, prompting investigations and new guidelines that discouraged most public prayer throughout the Air Force. The academy observes a moment of silence before meals.

This week, The New York Times reported that about a half-dozen cadets at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point told the paper that religion was a constant at the academy. They pointed to prayers at mandatory banquets and religious terms used in speeches by the college's former top military leader.

A West Point spokesman said it does not have mealtime prayers.

"During a very few big events each year, such as the 500th-night banquet and graduation we have a nondenominational invocation and benediction," said Col. Bryan Hilferty, the spokesman, in an email. "That is all. Not during breakfast. Not during lunch. Not during dinner. Not in a box. Not with a fox. Not in a house. Not with a mouse."

For years, civil liberties groups have petitioned the Naval Academy to stop mealtime prayer. The ACLU said that it has periodically received complaints from midshipmen about the practice and that some students recently wrote anonymously to academy leaders to complain.

Jeon said the ACLU was approached last winter by nine midshipmen who opposed the practice, which involves students standing at "parade rest," bowing their heads and folding their hands while chaplains recite a prayer. Midshipmen are not required to bow their heads, she said, but those who refuse to do so stand out and risk feeling ostracized.

The academy has not responded to the ACLU's May 2 letter to Fowler, she said. "The only option that's left is to file a lawsuit, and we are considering this," Jeon said.

A Navy ensign who graduated from the academy last month said that she and a group of students approached the ACLU last winter because they came to believe the practice was unconstitutional.

The woman, who spoke on the condition that she not be identified because she feared retribution, said students are taught on their first day at the academy to change stances and bow their heads during prayer.

"When everyone around you is doing that, especially as a plebe, it's very domineering and kind of scary if you don't wish to participate," said the woman, who was raised Roman Catholic but is now agnostic.

She said she stopped bowing her head during prayer in her junior and senior years. No one ever remarked about her refusal to bow her head and clasp her hands in front of her during prayer, she said.

"They always say, 'If you will, please join me in prayer.' It's obviously optional, but the fact that everyone around you is doing it makes it a peer influence," the academy graduate said.

Experts have been divided over whether the practice would withstand legal scrutiny.

Eugene R. Fidell, a Washington lawyer who specializes in military law, said the Navy "treads on thin ice" in this case.

"Being in a service academy is a unique environment where obedience and group dynamics are at their apogee," Fidell said. "The danger that individual preferences or conscience will be overridden as a result of group pressure or institutional pressure is palpable."

He added, "It's not a funeral. It's not an inauguration. It's the noon meal. Nothing is more routine than that."

Rep. Walter B. Jones Jr., a North Carolina Republican who has introduced legislation in recent years to preserve the right of U.S. military academies to offer grace during mealtime, said the prayer at the academy is an important tradition.

"This has just been part of the education of the midshipmen for years and years," Jones said, pointing out that midshipmen aren't forced to pray. "If that midshipman is standing there with his or her head bowed, they could be thinking about the next Notre Dame-Navy football game."

TO

timshatz · 06-26-2008, 10:25 AM

Don't worry about it. The Military has dealt with these guys in the past and knows how to handle it. Notice it was a threat, not a suit. If the ACLU really thought they had a case, they would've filed.

For starters, if the suit is brought, the officer will have to be named. Even if she gets away with a Jane Doe, they'll figure it out.

The Navy will do some PC work on it, claim the Midshipman are not required to pray but have to observe a momment of silence and that will be that.

This one will probably go away. Probably.

Good luck to the knucklehead who started this crap.

ToughOmbre · 06-26-2008, 10:44 AM

The ACLU is good at one thing though.....

Continually proving that they are an ENEMY of the USA!

TO

Lucky13 · 06-26-2008, 11:52 AM

ACLU????

wilbur1 · 06-26-2008, 12:05 PM

Junior.......get my gun

syscom3 · 06-26-2008, 12:13 PM

No one should be forced to, or feel compelled to attend religious services if they do not want to. And if a promotion in the acadamy is based on attendence of a religious service, then the acadamy needs a top to bottom house cleaning.

The services should make this clear to everyone, cadet and staff alike.

The two biggest a**ho**s in the world are those that ram their religious beliefs down others throats, and those that want to deny religious observance to others.

A TRUE AMERICAN IS ONE WHO DEOSNT CARE WHAT THE OTHER PERSONS RELIGION IS, NOR CARES HOW THEY OBSERVE IT, BUT ALSO DEMANDS TO BE LEFT ALONE ON WHETHER THEY ARE RELIGIOUS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!

timshatz · 06-26-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky13

ACLU????

American Civil Liberties Union. Started back in the 20s with the proffessed goal of protecting the Civil Liberties of the individual American. Started by an avowed socialist, their agenda is typically Progressive (read Marxist Lite).

It uses the courts to advance that goal.

ToughOmbre · 06-26-2008, 01:19 PM

sys, I don't think a mealtime prayer would be considered a "religious service". If the midshipmen were forced to go to church on Sunday, I would agree with you.

They're not forced to say the prayer, only stand.

The middies should stop whining.

The ACLU.....?

They can go to hell!

TO

Lucky13 · 06-26-2008, 01:49 PM

I wouldn't have any problem with it....certainly not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

American Civil Liberties Union. Started back in the 20s with the proffessed goal of protecting the Civil Liberties of the individual American. Started by an avowed socialist, their agenda is typically Progressive (read Marxist Lite).

It uses the courts to advance that goal.

Cheers buddy!

syscom3 · 06-26-2008, 01:54 PM

If its just standing while others pray, then thats OK.

Its more a sign of respect for others, to do it.

renrich · 06-26-2008, 02:14 PM

I agree with your points Sys, the cadets that don't want to pray shold not have to but they should show respect by standing quietly while the others do pray. However, if the agnostics or atheists raise a ruckus or sue to stop the prayers, I would want them removed from the academy.

RabidAlien · 06-26-2008, 02:31 PM

Funny how all those complaints are "anonymous". Are they too afraid to stand up for their beliefs (or lack thereof) while trashing those of others? Or is the ACLU (Anti-Christian Liberals, Uninformed) just making this crap up again, to possibly scare the Academy or just get their names on the headlines?

06-26-2008, 09:26 AM	#1
ccheese Older Than Dirt Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 7,309	ACLU Threaten to Sue Naval Academy There was an article in this morning's Virginian Pilot that the ACLU has threatened to sue the US Naval Academy over the noontime prayer. One female graduate, who refused to give her name, stated she was forced to participate in the noontime prayer, even tho she is agnostic. She declined to give her name for fear it would affect her naval career. The Navy has declined to comment. I have checked the on line news services but can't find any more info. Anyone have anything to add ? Charles __________________ I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either....

06-26-2008, 09:39 AM	#2
RabidAlien Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hurst, Texas Posts: 2,823	Nothing I have to add would be polite. The ACLU are just a bunch of morons sticking their noses in where they're not wanted. __________________ Pillage, then burn. Argue not with dragons, for thou art crunchy and go well on toast.

06-26-2008, 10:14 AM	#3
ToughOmbre Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 3,230	How about this..... F* the ACLU and the horse they rode in on! TO __________________ “Let's get Enterprise and Hornet turned into the wind."**

06-26-2008, 10:18 AM	#4
ToughOmbre Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 3,230	From the Baltimore Sun ACLU threatens to take legal action against Academy By Josh Mitchell \| Sun reporter June 26, 2008 A national civil liberties group is renewing a push to end mealtime prayer at the U.S. Naval Academy, where a group of midshipmen recently complained to officials that they felt pressured to participate in the longtime practice. The tradition, believed to date back to the college's founding in 1845, now involves a chaplain's leading grace before a noon meal that all 4,200 midshipmen must attend at King Hall. Midshipmen are not required to pray, though they must stand during the recital, and most bow their heads. Nine students recently approached the American Civil Liberties Union for help in getting the academy to end the practice. In a letter recently sent to the academy's superintendent, Vice Adm. Jeffrey L. Fowler, the ACLU threatened legal action. "The government should not be in the business of compelling religious observance, particularly in military academies, where students can feel coerced by senior students and officials and risk the loss of leadership opportunities for following their conscience," Deborah A. Jeon, legal director for the ACLU of Maryland, wrote. The academy has rejected various requests by the ACLU and other civil liberties groups to end the practice, and a college spokesman said yesterday that its position remains the same. "The Academy does not intend to change its practice of offering Midshipmen an opportunity for prayer or devotional thought during noon meal announcements," the spokesman, Cmdr. Ed Austin, said in a statement. He said college officials are "coordinating our response with Department of the Navy leadership and will be responding to the ACLU soon." The ACLU's latest push in Annapolis renews questions about the role of religion at the nation's military colleges. In 2003, a federal appeals court struck down suppertime prayer at the Virginia Military Institute as a violation of church-state separation. Two years later, the Air Force Academy faced charges of proselytizing by college personnel and cadets, prompting investigations and new guidelines that discouraged most public prayer throughout the Air Force. The academy observes a moment of silence before meals. This week, The New York Times reported that about a half-dozen cadets at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point told the paper that religion was a constant at the academy. They pointed to prayers at mandatory banquets and religious terms used in speeches by the college's former top military leader. A West Point spokesman said it does not have mealtime prayers. "During a very few big events each year, such as the 500th-night banquet and graduation we have a nondenominational invocation and benediction," said Col. Bryan Hilferty, the spokesman, in an email. "That is all. Not during breakfast. Not during lunch. Not during dinner. Not in a box. Not with a fox. Not in a house. Not with a mouse." For years, civil liberties groups have petitioned the Naval Academy to stop mealtime prayer. The ACLU said that it has periodically received complaints from midshipmen about the practice and that some students recently wrote anonymously to academy leaders to complain. Jeon said the ACLU was approached last winter by nine midshipmen who opposed the practice, which involves students standing at "parade rest," bowing their heads and folding their hands while chaplains recite a prayer. Midshipmen are not required to bow their heads, she said, but those who refuse to do so stand out and risk feeling ostracized. The academy has not responded to the ACLU's May 2 letter to Fowler, she said. "The only option that's left is to file a lawsuit, and we are considering this," Jeon said. A Navy ensign who graduated from the academy last month said that she and a group of students approached the ACLU last winter because they came to believe the practice was unconstitutional. The woman, who spoke on the condition that she not be identified because she feared retribution, said students are taught on their first day at the academy to change stances and bow their heads during prayer. "When everyone around you is doing that, especially as a plebe, it's very domineering and kind of scary if you don't wish to participate," said the woman, who was raised Roman Catholic but is now agnostic. She said she stopped bowing her head during prayer in her junior and senior years. No one ever remarked about her refusal to bow her head and clasp her hands in front of her during prayer, she said. "They always say, 'If you will, please join me in prayer.' It's obviously optional, but the fact that everyone around you is doing it makes it a peer influence," the academy graduate said. Experts have been divided over whether the practice would withstand legal scrutiny. Eugene R. Fidell, a Washington lawyer who specializes in military law, said the Navy "treads on thin ice" in this case. "Being in a service academy is a unique environment where obedience and group dynamics are at their apogee," Fidell said. "The danger that individual preferences or conscience will be overridden as a result of group pressure or institutional pressure is palpable." He added, "It's not a funeral. It's not an inauguration. It's the noon meal. Nothing is more routine than that." Rep. Walter B. Jones Jr., a North Carolina Republican who has introduced legislation in recent years to preserve the right of U.S. military academies to offer grace during mealtime, said the prayer at the academy is an important tradition. "This has just been part of the education of the midshipmen for years and years," Jones said, pointing out that midshipmen aren't forced to pray. "If that midshipman is standing there with his or her head bowed, they could be thinking about the next Notre Dame-Navy football game." TO __________________ *“Let's get Enterprise* and Hornet turned into the wind."**

06-26-2008, 10:44 AM	#6
ToughOmbre Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 3,230	The ACLU is good at one thing though..... Continually proving that they are an ENEMY of the USA! TO __________________ *“Let's get Enterprise* and Hornet turned into the wind."**

06-26-2008, 10:25 AM	#5
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,446	Don't worry about it. The Military has dealt with these guys in the past and knows how to handle it. Notice it was a threat, not a suit. If the ACLU really thought they had a case, they would've filed. For starters, if the suit is brought, the officer will have to be named. Even if she gets away with a Jane Doe, they'll figure it out. The Navy will do some PC work on it, claim the Midshipman are not required to pray but have to observe a momment of silence and that will be that. This one will probably go away. Probably. Good luck to the knucklehead who started this crap.

06-26-2008, 11:52 AM	#7
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,121	ACLU???? __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

06-26-2008, 12:05 PM	#8
wilbur1 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Escondido,Ca Posts: 2,206	Junior.......get my gun __________________ Dont shoot him...... It will just make him angry.

06-26-2008, 12:13 PM	#9
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,277	No one should be forced to, or feel compelled to attend religious services if they do not want to. And if a promotion in the acadamy is based on attendence of a religious service, then the acadamy needs a top to bottom house cleaning. The services should make this clear to everyone, cadet and staff alike. The two biggest ahos in the world are those that ram their religious beliefs down others throats, and those that want to deny religious observance to others. A TRUE AMERICAN IS ONE WHO DEOSNT CARE WHAT THE OTHER PERSONS RELIGION IS, NOR CARES HOW THEY OBSERVE IT, BUT ALSO DEMANDS TO BE LEFT ALONE ON WHETHER THEY ARE RELIGIOUS OR NOT!!!!!!!!! __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" Last edited by syscom3; 06-26-2008 at 01:52 PM.

06-26-2008, 01:19 PM	#11
ToughOmbre Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 3,230	sys, I don't think a mealtime prayer would be considered a "religious service". If the midshipmen were forced to go to church on Sunday, I would agree with you. They're not forced to say the prayer, only stand. The middies should stop whining. The ACLU.....? They can go to hell! TO __________________ *“Let's get Enterprise* and Hornet turned into the wind."**

06-26-2008, 01:54 PM	#13
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,277	If its just standing while others pray, then thats OK. Its more a sign of respect for others, to do it. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

06-26-2008, 02:14 PM	#14
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,270	I agree with your points Sys, the cadets that don't want to pray shold not have to but they should show respect by standing quietly while the others do pray. However, if the agnostics or atheists raise a ruckus or sue to stop the prayers, I would want them removed from the academy.

06-26-2008, 02:31 PM	#15
RabidAlien Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hurst, Texas Posts: 2,823	Funny how all those complaints are "anonymous". Are they too afraid to stand up for their beliefs (or lack thereof) while trashing those of others? Or is the ACLU (Anti-Christian Liberals, Uninformed) just making this crap up again, to possibly scare the Academy or just get their names on the headlines? __________________ Pillage, then burn. Argue not with dragons, for thou art crunchy and go well on toast.

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