Brazil Air Crash

FLYBOYJ · 10-07-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief

Is there a draw back to having the transponder on the whole flight? Just wondering.

ATC knows where you are at all times by having it on - basically it's the law to have one in class "A" airspace (above 18,000 feet) or within a 30 mile ring of a class "B" airspace (airspace around a "Big" airport), explained in simple terms....

FLYBOYJ · 10-07-2006, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I tend not to guess to much about air incidents I've guessed wrong more then once something sounds screwed up with ATC if the aircraft were at the same altitude and in the same vicinity you would instruct both aircraft to change altitude one up ...one down and determine the cause of the conflict later "pull the tapes" all the search radar tapes and voice tapes but there are so many variables and we have access to about 25% of the info

You hit the nail on the head my friend!

FLYBOYJ · 10-07-2006, 08:55 AM

This in today...

RIO DE JANEIRO (AFP) - Six days after a mid-air collision over the Amazon jungle killed 154 people in Brazil's worst air tragedy, a raft of key questions about what caused the disaster went unanswered.

A small business jet, with two US pilots, and a GOL airline's Boeing 737 collided; the smaller plane managed to land safely, but the GOL jet's passengers and crew perished on the jungle floor.

Brazilian authorities on Wednesday detained two US pilots to face possible manslaughter charges. Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino were the pilot and co-pilot of an Embraer Legacy 600 business jet that collided last Friday with a Boeing 737 belonging to GOL airline at 11,200 meters (37,000 feet).

A judge in Mato Grasso state, where the GOL plane crashed, ordered their passports confiscated.

GOL revised the death toll in the crash from 155 to 154 people killed, saying it had counted one passenger twice.

Investigators want to know why the Legacy's anti-collision system failed to work, and why the pilot had turned off the plane's radio.?????

The radio was working, for they used it to issue a mayday call and eventually to find the military airport they landed at. According to police, the pilot was out of the cabin when the radio signal was interrupted.

Among the looming questions: Was the tragedy a result of pilot error by someone flying the Legacy? Was it caused by a Brazilian air traffic controller? Or was there a mechanical malfunction?

Authorities believe only the full investigation, which they said should take about 90 days, will tell.

The Boeing's "black boxes" were found seriously damaged, and were sent to Canada to be examined by experts.

Lepore and Paladino have been questioned twice by Mato Grosso police. They made their emergency landing at the Serra do Cachimbo military base there.

In Washington, the State Department said the United States was following the probe.

"We have been in touch with the Brazilian Government about this issue and also have been, through our consular officials, talking with the individuals involved," said Tom Casey, a State Department spokesman.

"But my understanding is they are not charged with any criminal violations. This is simply part of a standard procedure that the Brazilians are applying under their law as they proceed with the investigation," he said.

Other questions up in the air include: Why did the anti-collision system not work at the moment of impact? Why did the system start working again later? Why was the Legacy in the air route reserved for the GOL jet? Why did communication between the Legacy and the control tower in Brasilia fail?

According to the flight plan, the Legacy left from Sao Jose dos Campos, in Sao Paulo state, ans was supposed to drop to 36,000 feet on its way into Brasilia headed for Manaus, capital of Amazonas state, where it was supposed to have a stopover en route to the United States.

The pilots told police they lost contact with the Brasilia control tower minutes before the impact, raising the hypothesis of a problem with the Brazilian-made Legacy's anti-collision system.

Embraer, which makes the Legacy, on Thursday declined to comment on an ongoing investigation.

Meanwhile, some 200 Brazilian troops remained on the ground picking through bits and pieces of the aircraft and recovering victims' remains, in an operation that is slow and difficult in the jungle. Remains of about 50 people have been moved out so far, authorities said Thursday.

Matt308 · 10-07-2006, 10:17 AM

Does Brazil rely upon ATCRBS and Primary Radar or is Brazil an ADS-B country? Hmmm. I can't believe only the latter, but perhaps over the jungle? Lots of space.

evangilder · 10-07-2006, 11:03 AM

Mysterious stuff. The wording on this question kind of made me laugh: "Why did the anti-collision system not work at the moment of impact?" If they collided, then it wasn't working before the impact either!

Gnomey · 10-07-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangilder

Mysterious stuff. The wording on this question kind of made me laugh: "Why did the anti-collision system not work at the moment of impact?" If they collided, then it wasn't working before the impact either!

Yep! I am beginning to think that someone or a number of people ****ed up big time somewhere and this was the result.

pbfoot · 10-19-2006, 07:40 AM

I found a bit more on the story apparentlly the the Legacy was not being tracked on radar and was following his flight plan he had been cleared to fl370 and upon making a turn had descended to fl360 as per flight plan . This info was released after reviewing the radar tapes . I'm going to guess that the radar tapes are possibly from the brasilian air defence radar

FLYBOYJ · 10-19-2006, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I found a bit more on the story apparentlly the the Legacy was not being tracked on radar and was following his flight plan he had been cleared to fl370 and upon making a turn had descended to fl360 as per flight plan . This info was released after reviewing the radar tapes . I'm going to guess that the radar tapes are possibly from the brasilian air defence radar

INTERESTING! I haven't heard much on this lately.

pbfoot · 10-28-2006, 02:49 PM

here is another tidbit:

Did Not Notice Legacy's Transponder Was Inactive
An unidentified Brazilian air traffic controller, working at the center responsible for directing traffic in the area where a Gol airlines 737 and a private business jet collided last month, told Newsday controllers had more than an hour to notice the smaller aircraft's transponder wasn't working at the time of the fatal accident that claimed 154 people.

The controller -- who stressed he was not involved in directing the planes involved in the accident -- also says controllers had plenty of time to notice the planes were on a collision course, even without the avoidance equipment.

"It is always our responsibility to maintain the separations," said the controller. "In this case, when you don't know the altitude, it is very dangerous." "I would have preferred to move them laterally, but it is always our responsibility to keep them separated."

As Aero-News reported, authorities have said controllers at two centers -- Brasilia, where the controller interviewed by Newsday works, and Manaus -- had directed the aircraft to the same altitude of 37,000 feet. All onboard the 737 were lost; amazingly, those onboard the bizjet, an Embraer Legacy 600 on a delivery flight to the US, survived after the plane's pilots executed an emergency landing.

Those pilots -- Americans Jan Paladino and Joseph Lepore -- had their passports immediately after the accident, and are still being held in Brazil. The two men say they were operating under control of the Brasilia center.

The Legacy's transponder apparently failed some time before the crash. The failure was not noticed by the pilots, or by controllers.

"Airspace Control [personnel] should have the main responsibility for monitoring and controlling aircraft," said Renato Claudio Costa Pereira, a retired Air Force major general who led the International Civil Aviation Organization for six years until 2003. "Transponders and TCAS [electronic collision avoidance equipment] are to be used as a last resort in any traffic conflict emergency."

A spokesman for the Brazilian Air Force, which oversees all air traffic control operations in the country, declined to comment

FLYBOYJ · 10-28-2006, 03:08 PM

BINGO!! A Smoking Gun!

There is no reason for these seemingly professional corporate pilots to risk their career by "purposely" turning off their transponder while in A airspace. I'm sorry but I have to say they were the easy scapegoats becuase they came out alive and because they were Americans.....

Matt308 · 10-29-2006, 02:40 PM

They found the orange boxes. Not sure if they found FDR, CVR or both. Anyone heard anything about content?

Matt308 · 11-01-2006, 02:51 PM

While just rumour, I have it on fairly good source that the Legacy pilots may have been "goofing around". Nothing to back that up, but those are the rumblings at the office.

If true, they are in deep kimchee.

FLYBOYJ · 11-01-2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt308

While just rumour, I have it on fairly good source that the Legacy pilots may have been "goofing around". Nothing to back that up, but those are the rumblings at the office.

If true, they are in deep kimchee.

Off the top I find that unlikely...

There was no report of anything unusual happening except their transponder not functioning. - I think radar might of been able to track them "squawkless" and if so would of shown changes in altitude in excess of IFR requirements...

Matt308 · 11-01-2006, 03:15 PM

Don't know. But with lots of critical equipment "off" seems strange. Folks from our office are involved in investigation. But what I noted above is PURELY rumour.

Their VHF radio was also off. Not sure what that means as there is not an OFF button on the audio control panel for a particular radio that I'm aware of for TSO-C37/C38 equipment installed in Part 25 airplanes. It may be that they were (1) either not monitoring VHF1, VHF2 and/or VHF3 or (2) they were not monitoring proper ATC freq.

Too many plain silly deviations from normal operation to be comprehensible.

pbfoot · 11-01-2006, 09:53 PM

A search radar should be able to track a primary target meaning the actual reflection of the radar off the aircraft skin rather then the secondary which is the transponder but it depends on so much such as the gains on the radar mti degrades the signal ,atmospherics
But it still boils down to whether the ATC instruction caused the conflict or disobeying the instruction. It is not uncommon to control IMC procedurally or without radar