Following Iraq's bioweapons trail

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Agree - but that still has little or nothing to do with UN clout if they all vote independantly

True.
The current situation is not manageable. Although the principle of having about 190 members having their say is a wonderful expression of democracy, it's really too difficult. Not only should the general assembly be modified so it would resemble more of a international parliament, the security council should be reorganized and the veto should have to go. I have often thought about this though it's damn difficult. Not only will one or another member refuse to give up their seat and will another refuse to give up their veto, or both, the other problem is how to have the entire world represented in this security council. And this works directly against the principle of every country equal to eachother.
For instance, I was thinking of having the following members: US, EU, non-EU Europe, Russia, China, Japan/S-Korea, SE-Asia, India, Commonwealth, Arabia, Black Africa, Latin America, Others but it is not perfectly balanced and especially the "others" are difficult to fill in: you'll have countries like Iran, Israel, Mongolia, Pakistan, which don't belong anywhere.
But I'm drifting off...

Kris

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Civettone

True.
The current situation is not manageable. Although the principle of having about 190 members having their say is a wonderful expression of democracy, it's really too difficult. Not only should the general assembly be modified so it would resemble more of a international parliament, the security council should be reorganized and the veto should have to go. I have often thought about this though it's damn difficult. Not only will one or another member refuse to give up their seat and will another refuse to give up their veto, or both, the other problem is how to have the entire world represented in this security council. And this works directly against the principle of every country equal to eachother.
For instance, I was thinking of having the following members: US, EU, non-EU Europe, Russia, China, Japan/S-Korea, SE-Asia, India, Commonwealth, Arabia, Black Africa, Latin America, Others but it is not perfectly balanced and especially the "others" are difficult to fill in: you'll have countries like Iran, Israel, Mongolia, Pakistan, which don't belong anywhere.
But I'm drifting off...

Kris

Actually I agree....

[pbfoot]

i would hate to be bunched up with the commonwealth a better one for us might be the Carribean, Central America, and Canada

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Civettone

True.
The current situation is not manageable. Although the principle of having about 190 members having their say is a wonderful expression of democracy, it's really too difficult. Not only should the general assembly be modified so it would resemble more of a international parliament, the security council should be reorganized and the veto should have to go. I have often thought about this though it's damn difficult. Not only will one or another member refuse to give up their seat and will another refuse to give up their veto, or both, the other problem is how to have the entire world represented in this security council. And this works directly against the principle of every country equal to eachother.
For instance, I was thinking of having the following members: US, EU, non-EU Europe, Russia, China, Japan/S-Korea, SE-Asia, India, Commonwealth, Arabia, Black Africa, Latin America, Others but it is not perfectly balanced and especially the "others" are difficult to fill in: you'll have countries like Iran, Israel, Mongolia, Pakistan, which don't belong anywhere.
But I'm drifting off...

Kris

100 % agree also, I have thought about it alot also. It really is near impossible to make work.....but is fun to try and come up with a workable plan.

I would not want to be grouped in with "Commonwealth" either. What do Canadians have in common with UK or any other Commonwealth? I don't really care about UK anymore than any other euro country.

Canada has more in common with USA, Mexico then UK.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

i would hate to be bunched up with the commonwealth a better one for us might be the Carribean, Central America, and Canada

So you vacation where its warm - I got you covered....

[pbfoot]

Next year i'll have to reaquire a passport to go anywhere south

[mkloby]

Hasn't anybody thought that the idea of each member state in the UN having an equal voice is absurd? Why should a state with a substantially smaller population have as much voice as say... China??? That's not exactly democratic. In fact, that's one of the reasons that I am not fond of the US Senate.

I disagree with any type of multi-national organization imbued with int'l powers. It requires that a nation give up some of its sovereignty to that organization. Luckily, many Americans agree with that sentiment.

[Civettone]

Hasn't anybody thought that the idea of each member state in the UN having an equal voice is absurd? Why should a state with a substantially smaller population have as much voice as say... China??? That's not exactly democratic.

Yes, it's far from ideal. The principle behind it is noble, giving small countries a bit more to say. A small country like Liechtenstein has a much to say as China. But going for the other method is also troublesome: based on population China would have 3 times more votes than the US, and 100 times more than Belgium. So what do we use as a guide? Perhaps GDP or size of the economy? But then the rich countries get even more power...

Some kind of a consensus should be found. But then very few will be pleased with the proposal. A similar story is going on in the EU now that Holland and France have rejected the European Constitution after some fools gave the people the opportunity to reject it.

Kris

[Njaco]

Throwing my 2 cents in. The question of WMDs is a game played by the media. The US military has a list of what qualifies as a WMD. But the media knows that without an A bomb the general public won't get excited. Found 1500 mustard gas containers but not nuclear warheads? Found chemical trucks all over but no H-bomb? Found everything on the list but the granddaddy "Global Warming Accelerator" weapon! Well, then there were no WMDs!! Now the public protests and demands withdraw.

The "liberal" media is against a conservative Pres, especially one that "stole" the election in the first place. A real, genuine justification for a war goes against their grain.

The US must get away from the UN. But for Hunter's fear of a world bully, the US would not allow such an invasion. The public still has some control over what the pols do and I can't see a scenario like that happening. China? well...............

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Njaco

But for Hunter's fear of a world bully, the US would not allow such an invasion. The public still has some control over what the pols do and I can't see a scenario like that happening.

You say that now.......but what about in 25 years? 50 years? 75 Years?

I am sure the countries around Germany never thought they would see WW1 coming.... or perhaps WW2 (well maybe lol).

What about Japan when it started flexing it's military might before 1940.

I am not comparing USA to Germany or Japan but I am just trying to make a point that goverments change, popular opinion changes, all things change over time.

I agree USA would never do such a thing .....now. But who knows what the USA will look like in 25, 50, 75 years.

When you are part of the most powerful nation on the planet.....well I am sure you are not to concerned. But people living in smaller nations might be a little more concerned. I am not willing to blindly "trust" USA with my life, future or my sovereignty.

I say this with all the respect in the world towards USA, but I trust no one blindly when they are holding a much bigger stick than I am.

Thats my point

[Njaco]

Oh I agree with you and I may be a bit naive when it comes to putting my faith in the public to force the Gov to do the proper thing.

I just don't know how it would work out. Sometimes I believe that the US should go back to a neutral position but keeping with your Teddy Roosevelt comment, we should carry a really big stick behind our backs to protect ourselves. I think the politicians get our country into too much crap and then can't get us out.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

You say that now.......but what about in 25 years? 50 years? 75 Years?

I am sure the countries around Germany never thought they would see WW1 coming.... or perhaps WW2 (well maybe lol).

What about Japan when it started flexing it's military might before 1940.

I am not comparing USA to Germany or Japan but I am just trying to make a point that goverments change, popular opinion changes, all things change over time.

I agree USA would never do such a thing .....now. But who knows what the USA will look like in 25, 50, 75 years.

When you are part of the most powerful nation on the planet.....well I am sure you are not to concerned. But people living in smaller nations might be a little more concerned. I am not willing to blindly "trust" USA with my life, future or my sovereignty.

I say this with all the respect in the world towards USA, but I trust no one blindly when they are holding a much bigger stick than I am.

Thats my point

Living in Canada for 5 years, I understand where you're coming from. But look at this way - look at the US 25 years ago and then look at the US today - little change. Even go back 40 years; the biggest difference (in my opinion) is more civil rights laws and more sensitivity toward minority groups (some ridiculous, some necessary). I think our societies and cultures are so similar any changes are usually transparent when viewed from "sitting on the fence."

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Living in Canada for 5 years, I understand where you're coming from. But look at this way - look at the US 25 years ago and then look at the US today - little change. Even go back 40 years; the biggest difference (in my opinion) is more civil rights laws and more sensitivity toward minority groups (some ridiculous, some necessary). I think our societies and cultures are so similar any changes are usually transparent when viewed from "sitting on the fence."

Believe me Joe there is no other country I would sooner live beside then the USA. I love alot of things about USA, I trust the USA more than any other nation.

But I could be living next to the Virgin Mary herself......I still would not trust her 100%.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Civettone

So now you're also a scientist and expert on WMDs? Personally, I couldn't be sure something is a WMD if you put it right on my desk. And then I start couphing up blood and my eyes start popping out...

Now you are just being stupid and instulting.

Did I ever say that I was a scientist or expert on WMD's?

No so dont go and insult my intelligence...

First of all, we recieve training on WMDs and how to tell what they are. Second of all I did not identify the mustard gas that was found, I flew the teams out and back that did identify it though.

Third do you even know what Anthropene Injectors are? I carried 2 of them on me at all times.

So again before you go and make accusations as you are, learn about the subject and get a fricken clue before you piss me off.

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Now you are just being stupid and instulting.
Did I ever say that I was a scientist or expert on WMD's?
No so dont go and insult my intelligence...

Chill down dude, I wasn't insulting your intelligence. I said I wouldn't recognize a WMD either! You need to be an expert to recognize it as a WMD, and you said you saw it yourself. You didn't mention any experts around you...

Third do you even know what Anthropene Injectors are? I carried 2 of them on me at all times.

No ... but I do know what Atropine injectors are. If I really was insulting your intelligence, I would say you can't even say it right...

So Chris, what was found and where? Perhaps you'll find it mentioned in the Survey Report. Only 700 pages to browse through...
Iraq Survey Group Final Report

Except for two members, all I've heard from you guys is how the media tricks us and that the truth is hidden ... isn't that convenient? You can prove anything by that. And what about right-wing media then? How come they don't provide proof?
And note that I'm not using any media sources, I'm using official reports. Like I said before, the guys at the Pentagon and the CIA would sell their mothers to find WMDs in Iraq.

Kris