Man, talk about a girl with GUTS !

[Maestro]

You know, I think we should run for it anyway. Of course we could kill one or two innocents in the process, but as long as it makes it safer for our citizens, who gives a f*ck ?

Oh, so we killed your husband and he was innocent ? Here are a few hundrend thousands dollars compensation with compliments from the governement.

Even if there was a few innocents sentenced to death, the number of @ssholes we could get ride of would greatly compensate. Because a f*cker off the streets is still one less f*cker to worry about.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Oh, and finally, I am not the one that needs to be tucked in to bed. I was one of the guys that make it possible for the rest of the community to sleep at night. Perhaps because I have benn a bit cl;oser to the legal process than most of you, I realize its weaknesses a bit better

Then surely with such a breadth of first hand legal case knowledge, you can't possibly support a statistic such as "20% of [US] death row inmates may be innocent". Surely.

And violent crime has decreased in the US too. Not only do we have the death penalty, but some states have an express lane. Go Texas.

Having said that, I too no longer support the death penalty as implemented in the US. Because of all of the legal inefficiencies that result in a death penalty sentence, I have now come to believe that as currently implemented it is too expensive. So prison with no parole is now my favorite. However, if we to at any point in time change the game rules, I would gladly advocate a death penalty sentence. And not just for capital or aggravated murder. Kid touchers would move to the front of the line.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by Matt308

Having said that, I too no longer support the death penalty as implemented in the US. Because of all of the legal inefficiencies that result in a death penalty sentence, I have now come to believe that as currently implemented it is too expensive. So prison with no parole is now my favorite. However, if we to at any point in time change the game rules, I would gladly advocate a death penalty sentence. And not just for capital or aggravated murder. Kid touchers would move to the front of the line.

With you all the way Matt!

Especially your last sentence.

TO

[parsifal]

Then surely with such a breadth of first hand legal case knowledge, you can't possibly support a statistic such as "20% of [US] death row inmates may be innocent". Surely.

I dont have a breadth of knowledge, but i have put enough people behind bars for crimes against the community, including male brothels, environmental destruction, child pornography, and premediated attacks by unrestrained dogs on defenceless children, to know something of the law. You thought I was a defence lawer didnt you, wrong. I have worked mostly as a prosecution expert, with a speciality in environmental and community breaches. Ive seen my share of low lifes, and i also have see more than my fair share of miscarriages, and I can tell you that the 20% estimate on misacarriages of justice is conservative

And violent crime has decreased in the US too. Not only do we have the death penalty, but some states have an express lane. Go Texas.
There is NO evidence to support the notion that the death penalty works as a deterrent to violent crime. in fact its works in the opposite direction. People who know they are going to fry generally are encouraged by the "system" to be even more desperate. What you are creating is a society of misfits....and aint that obvious


Having said that, I too no longer support the death penalty as implemented in the US. Because of all of the legal inefficiencies that result in a death penalty sentence, I have now come to believe that as currently implemented it is too expensive. So prison with no parole is now my favorite. However, if we to at any point in time change the game rules, I would gladly advocate a death penalty sentence. And not just for capital or aggravated murder. Kid touchers would move to the front of the line

God i would laugh if ever you get falsely accused, tried and sent to the fryer screaming like a stuck pig that you were innocent, knowing that the prosecutor knew you were innocent, but because the system is not interested in justice, just in upholding the law, and the system has someone to blame, then you will do.

In Australia ther has been two cases of such miscarriages (actually there are hundreeds, but these two should illustyrate the problems just a bit). One involved a hanging, back in the 30's, which new evidence now shows the man was innocent. The evidence, incidentally is incontrovertible, more disturbingly, it was evidence known to police at the time, but witheld from the trial judge, because they wanted to get a conviction. B*gger that the guy hanged for a crime he didnt commit, they just wanted blod, very similar to what i am seeing here in this thread) He recently received an official pardon from the governor, 70 years too late.

The second did not involve the death penalty, but it was a gaol sentence. The woman was accused of murdering her own child. She had claimed a wild dog (a dingo) had taken the baby. Complex forensic evidence was submitted that "proved" this was not possible. She went to Gaol, for twenty years i believe. 4 years after she had entered Darwin Gaol (one of the toughest womens gaols in the country), police found the babies remains, you guessed it in a dogs lair. They tried to withhold the evidence, because they "did not want to undermine the faith in the system" But they were forced to, and the woman was eventually pardoned by the governor and the conviction overturned and expunged. Doesnt do a lot to reinforce your faith in the system

So you guys can convince yourself how good the system is, and how safe it makes you, and how the occasional miscarriage doesnt matter. But I can tell you that on every count that you are congratulating yourselves about supporting a system you think is near "fool"proof, and dishing out puinishment only to those who deserve it, youd be wrong. The only "fool"(s) are those that support and advocate such a system

Oh, and I relented and read the article. As I expected it doesnt change a thing, Im not going to change my attitude, just because the NY times publishes something like that. Do you beleive everything you read in the Newspaper?? Oh I forgot, you support the death penalty, of course you do

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Matt308

Having said that, I too no longer support the death penalty as implemented in the US. Because of all of the legal inefficiencies that result in a death penalty sentence, I have now come to believe that as currently implemented it is too expensive. So prison with no parole is now my favorite. However, if we to at any point in time change the game rules, I would gladly advocate a death penalty sentence. And not just for capital or aggravated murder. Kid touchers would move to the front of the line.

Matt, Parsifal you are both right to some extent.

1.) Matt, I would agree with most here that this guy deserves to be fried. {slow & painfully too!} but only If he is guilty of what he is accused of.

2.) Parsifal you are correct that it is often difficult to determine guilt with 100% accuracy. Many innocents have likely been executed

3.) I believe that you are also right that statistics generally do not support the idea of the death penalty as a deterrent.

4.) However most of us are also outraged that the most awful offenders "punishment" is to sit around on the taxpayers dime until some weasel parole board lets them out. Case in point = "Paul Bernardo" - to have this guy show up every 5 years for a parole hearing {as allowed by law} and have the victims families re-live every time is offensive too.

[parsifal]

I do understand the outrage that people feel, its justified. i remeber one case I was involved with....was a male brotherl that forced bys as young as 9 years old into the sex trade, and kept them there by drugs mostly. At the beginning the DPP (department Of Public prosecutions) was all in favour of throwing the book at the patrons, and the operators, until they relaized that we intended to prosecute a prominent politician, and a supreme court judge. We were never alowed to take the case to court. Can you imagine how that made me feel? I wanted to take the law into my own hands right there and then.....and there was nothing wrong with our case either...we were never given a reason for the decision
My point is this...the system is just too imperfect to impose the death penalty, and anyway it fails to deliver what it promises. you do not safeguard society by killing your state wards

[Clave]

Life sentence should mean life though, they should make parole hearings every 25 years in cases like this unless there is exceptional new evidence...

Killing people like that means nothing, because life means nothing to them. It is far better imho to lock them away forever, because that way there is no hope, no speedy resolution, just an endless drag of days until they get taken out in a box...

Of course it's more satisfying to fry them, but the State needs to be morally superior to the criminal, and eventually there will be no Death Penalty in any country, because it just does not work as a deterrent imo...

[javlin]

I do not think Parsifal that it is quite that high here on death row stateside I would believe maybe 5% though.But back to the point of the death penalty I would all be for forgoing it if Life in prison met life in prison.The fact that some of these guys get the perks they do is beyond comprehension this is punishment.Maybe if our prisons operated like like those in Thailand were no reading,excerise and food with flies on it might make some crimals actully think twice.If the criminal commits a crime worthy of 25yrs he will die there for lost of desire to live.Then the crimal gets two appeals in the first five years after that its over unless new evidence shows up.

[wilbur1]

Me personnally the systems work half the time the other half they SUCK

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by parsifal

[B]
God i would laugh if ever you get falsely accused, tried and sent to the fryer screaming like a stuck pig that you were innocent, knowing that the prosecutor knew you were innocent, but because the system is not interested in justice, just in upholding the law, and the system has someone to blame, then you will do.

...

Do you beleive everything you read in the Newspaper?? Oh I forgot, you support the death penalty, of course you do

Parsifal, you are walking a fine line here and you better put that attitude in check. Now.

[Njaco]

Death penalty is useless because it takes 20+ years to hang 'em. And keeping them in for life is useless because parole, parole, parole.

But it is the best system we have until something better comes along and that hasn't happened yet.

Parsifal, I, too, have tried to put scumbags away only to see a slap on the wrist. But you can't give up and let the monkeys have free reign.

[Maestro]

I just had an other idea for sentencing...

When a murderer/rapist is found guilty, I suggest we offer him two choices : be hanged within two weeks or serve 15 years in the Foreign Legion. Now, that is a good deal, no ? Like most "Legioneers" end up in coffins anyway, I bet he'll choose the rope.

[parsifal]

In New South Wales legislation was passed in 1989 which attempted to introduce "Truth In Sentencing". The aim of this legislation, was to limit the effects of Parole Boards, "Good Behaviours" and the like. It severely restricted the ability of Parole Boards to release prisoners on "Community Sevice Orders"

Subsequently the NSW Government introduced further legislation that laid down mandatory terms for serious offences such as rape and murder.

Unfortunately, and as usual, the judiciary reacted violently to this attack on their "independance" and has managed to have the effect of this legislation somewhat restricted. However, the sentenceing tems for serious offences has increased. From memory, someone convicted of Manslaughter, will on average now seve anout 16 years Gaol, compared to about 12 years under the old Probationary Crimes Act of 1983.

The legislation has only been partially successful, but IMO it points the way to dealing with serious crime, without the need to murder innocent (potenitally) people. If you commit this crime, you are going to serve this amount of time, and no amount of money or influence is going to get you out of gaol...

The other thing that needs to be overhauled is the fairness of the system. Too many people in Australia of non-white, poor extraction are "railroaded to gaol, whilst rich, all white folks get off very easily. For the system to work better, it has to be fair, and the judiciary needs a thorough ovehaul in the way that it thinks.

Anyway, here is the link if you are interested

http://www.dcs.nsw.gov.au/informatio...tion/rp022.pdf

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Nah... Bullets are expensive. Use the good ol' rope and hang that @sshole.

But you'll have to spend money on building the rig. Just use good old surplus ammo then lets be rid of all those assholes. Against a firing squad there is atleast no chance of surviving your sentence like there is with the electric chair, and it's cheaper than lethal injection.

The law should be that if there is outstanding evidence to ensure with 100% certainty that the guy is guilty of murder, then death by firing squad should be the sentence. Otherwise life time in jail (And I mean until dead with no parole) should be the sentence, that way if the person is innocent there's a chance to prove it.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Soren

But you'll have to spend money on building the rig.

May be, but the rig is like the rope : re-usable.