Man, talk about a girl with GUTS !

[Njaco]

I have an idea - What about the death penalty for those that we know are guilty. I understand Parsifal's concern but is there no question about Charles Manson's guilt, Ted Kazinski's guilt and others that we know without a doubt did it? I'm tired of paying for these lowlifes to breathe another minute.

Euthanize them.

Then wake up the Justice system to the fact that pedofiles cannot be cured. End of story. So let them take the place of the Mansons and Kazinksis and keep them locked up for life. Thats a price I will pay to keep my daughter and my sons safe.

[javlin]

Then wake up the Justice system to the fact that pedofiles cannot be cured
and that is the truth there Njaco my sister a die hard Lib/Dem use to work with these exact types in the FL Pent System and those were her exact words "they cannot be reformed".She was even attacked at the prison once by one of these perps.She now teaches kids with learning problems in FL.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Maestro

May be, but the rig is like the rope : re-usable.

Aah come on! I mean how much can it cost to blow away these lowlifes when compared to the cost of keeping them alive ?

You want a really cost effective execution tool with a 100% death everytime guarantee, then bring on the guillotine The french actually used it up until the late 70's as their official execution device.

[Njaco]

How about stick them on an oil tanker or cargo ship, middle of the Atlantic of Pacific tell them to jump or push them off. What cost in that?

Ain't that the truth, Javelin, and its a miscarriage of Justice when I see these freaks let loose as "rehabbed". Ain't no such thing!

[ToughOmbre]

Jailhouse justice. Put a tattoo across their forehead that labels them as a child molester and put them in jail with the general prison population.

Your tax dollars won't be spent keeping them alive for very long.

TO

[Negative Creep]

The death penalty isn't going to save us money

Study Concludes Death Penalty is Costly Policy
In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases. The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The costs of appeals were 29% of the total expense, and the incarceration and execution costs accounted for the remaining 22%.

source Costs of the Death Penalty

It's a hard one, when I see some of the reports on TV the instant reaction is that they've committed such a heinous crime that they've forfeited the right to live. Problem is, look at the cold facts and the case becomes weaker. It isn't a deterrent as very few murders are planned, they are normally heat of the moment. Then there is the problem of where to draw the line. Let's say all peadophiles should be executed. Ok, if you're talking about a child molester then it's hard to disagree. But if you say all of them, then do you include a person who slept with someone a week under the age of consent, who told him otherwise? Thing is,every case is different and you can't just say 'x should be punished with y'.

You could also say that execution is the easiest way out. Perhaps a more fitting punishment would be to let them rot in jail for the rest of their lives. It's a tough one; you could say serious crimes deserve it, but how do you define serious?

[Njaco]

Serious would be someone who has molested more than one child during his life. Of course the Vatican might collapse.

Serious is someone who has killed someone so violent and heinous that there should be no doubt that they take another breath.

I'm not talking about car accidents that kill or an 18 yr old with a 16 yr old girlfriend.

But should Tim McVeigh sat in prison for 60= years?
Ted Bundy?
Ted Kazinsky?
Charles Manson?
David Berkowitz?
Charles Chitat Ng?
Karla Homolka?

the list goes on and on.

You want serious. Google that last name. Its ing she still btreathes.

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Serious would be someone who has molested more than one child during his life. Of course the Vatican might collapse.

Serious is someone who has killed someone so violent and heinous that there should be no doubt that they take another breath.

I'm not talking about car accidents that kill or an 18 yr old with a 16 yr old girlfriend.

But should Tim McVeigh sat in prison for 60= years?
Ted Bundy?
Ted Kazinsky?
Charles Manson?
David Berkowitz?
Charles Chitat Ng?
Karla Homolka?

the list goes on and on.

You want serious. Google that last name. Its ing she still btreathes.

NJ

The whole debate centres around what is approprite state respopnse to violent crime. To break it down to absolute basic theory its a mixture of justice, retribtion and rehabilitation. To this has to be added the abilty of the system to get its right, the error rate if you like.

Essentially what you are saying is that if there is no hope for rehabilitation, then all effort ought to be put into the retribution side of things. Maybe. But what about the error rate problem. Also, I still dont think that killing your state wards does much to make society safer. Potential perps on the outside are just going to get even more desperate if they know they are going to die if caught.

To me, life should be life, and mandatory sentencing is part of the answer. The system is otherwise unfair, with poor folks getting the maximum sentence, and rich ones, able to hire a good lawyer and get away with murder (aka that black guy ex football player in LA)

[evangilder]

It's not about retribution, it's about making our societies safer. Guys like Bundy and Manson are nut cases that would surely kill again if given a chance. So you lock them up and throw away the key. Okay, and what happens when someone like that escapes?

People always talk about the innocent what ifs in death penalty cases. Do you not think there are people on LWOP sentences that may be innocent? The innocents here are the poor victims of these heinous crimes.

Mandatory sentencing only goes into effect after a person is convicted. Mandatory sentencing would have made ZERO difference in the OJ case because he was acquitted.

[parsifal]

It's not about retribution, it's about making our societies safer. Guys like Bundy and Manson are nut cases that would surely kill again if given a chance. So you lock them up and throw away the key. Okay, and what happens when someone like that escapes?

Retribution is part of the penal system....you do the crime, you do the time, as they say.

If Manson or Bundy escapes, they will kill again I agree, but where does this end. Killing a Manson or a Bundy type appears justified, but in a way it martyrs them as well, and in awarped twisted way encourages other drop kicks to emulate them, to achive notoriety and celebrity. Sick but true

People always talk about the innocent what ifs in death penalty cases. Do you not think there are people on LWOP sentences that may be innocent? The innocents here are the poor victims of these heinous crimes.

Yes I do, but at least there is the possibilty of overturning a wrongful conviction. Death kinda introduces a finality to the whole thing.
The victims are the victims. But putting away or killing the wrong person doesnt help that. Neither does imposing a manifestly inadequate sentence, and neither does justice get served by having a system that favours the rich and powerful. Uniformity in sentencing has to be part of the solution, as is some kind of equity in the trial process.

The trick is to be fair, but firm, and consistent. Also the system needs to set the example. If it sets the example by killing people, how can you expect the societty it serves to react any differently.

This is a very difficult issue, and one that everyone, including me tends to get emotional about. But there are no easy fixes. The lynch mob mentality that you can see in this thread by some, is only going to hurt the society it is trying to protect, IMO

Mandatory sentencing only goes into effect after a person is convicted. Mandatory sentencing would have made ZERO difference in the OJ case because he was acquitted.

Yes, I was mistaken, however, do you think that the averge Joe with his local family attorney or no attorney would have achieved the same result in the OJ case?

[evangilder]

Lynch mob mentality? I don't think so. There are varying degrees of beliefs here and I have not seen anyone with a lynch mob mentality. Killing someone like Bundy or Manson is justified. I don't care if it make them a "martyr". There are not that many who would follow the madmen anyway. In clear guilt cases, there really is no reason to allow them to live when the death penalty sentence is in place. Heinous crimes demand swift and severe sentencing.

People will achieve fame or notoriety for the crime, not the sentence. Copycat killers and perps are nothing new, and the sentence they receive is not what makes them famous or notorious.

I do agree that everyone should have the same level of representation, but that can be difficult. There are good and bad public defenders too.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by parsifal

NJ
Potential perps on the outside are just going to get even more desperate if they know they are going to die if caught.

And this differs from LWOP how??

Originally Posted by parsifal

To me, life should be life, and mandatory sentencing is part of the answer. The system is otherwise unfair, with poor folks getting the maximum sentence, and rich ones, able to hire a good lawyer and get awaywith murder (aka that black guy ex football player in LA)

So the problem is the system application of existing laws. The problem is not the laws themselves. Apples and oranges. OJ Simpson should NOT have been put to death. Why? The prosecution blew the case. But he sure as hell should have been put in jail for a VERY long time. In my opinion he was guilty beyond a resonable doubt. But the naivete' of his prosecution did not even come close in confirming his guilt to a level that warranted the death sentence.

[Njaco]

Retribution is part of the penal system....you do the crime, you do the time, as they say.

As they say but not as they do. Why does a family stricken by the horrendous loss of someone have to continually for the rest of their lives go to parole board hearings to defend their dead loved one? Life is Life is Life. No parole, no time off for good behavior, no get out of jail free card. As far as I am concerned, the perps violated the rules and morals of society and have forfeited any right to exist in that society.

[parsifal]

agree completely. Truth in sentencing, and mandatory gaol times for a given type of crime. Murder = life