Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

[GrauGeist]

You do realize that the military satellites can pinpoint a source of ignition, location of launch and transit of missiles?

Couple that intel with a cross-check of the black box's point of termination, and you literally have a "smoking gun"...

 

[parsifal]

maybe, without actually saying so, that is the reason the EU cranked up the severity of the sanctions this week.

if they shut down the gas markets across Europe.....no russian gas at all....and anyone who does buy it off them joi0ns being sanctioned, this would be over in a week i reckon.

 

[Torch]

The rebels now placed mines around the crash site keeping the inspectors out...F##ckrs

 

[Njaco]

World wars have been started for alot less..................

 

[Marcel]

Glad that some people still think the world can be divided in black and white. I don't know who the villain is in this story and who the hero. I guess none of them are. Right now we get as much help from one as the other, meaning none.

 

[vikingBerserker]

The rebels now placed mines around the crash site keeping the inspectors out...F##ckrs

That just makes them look even guiltier.

 

[bobbysocks]

You do realize that the military satellites can pinpoint a source of ignition, location of launch and transit of missiles?

Couple that intel with a cross-check of the black box's point of termination, and you literally have a "smoking gun"...

yes i do and i also realize that different aspects ( heat, signals, seismic, etc ) of the same thing could be recognised by several other sources putting fingerprints on the smoking gun...

 

[Gnomey]

The rebels now placed mines around the crash site keeping the inspectors out...F##ckrs

That just makes them look even guiltier.

Indeed.

Some of the conspiracy theories going around with regards to this incident at the other one earlier in the year are quite something to read.

 

[parsifal]

Its a war zone guys. anything can and probably will happen. I hope the EU is excercising a healthy dose of realpolitik in this and not getting and attack of the guilts over being "fair", or "in the intersts of peace". We should be picking a side...the one best aligned to our belifs, or the one that serves our interests the best, and not worry about the morals of war. The morals of war are very important, provided you think about them before the shooting starts. Once the war breaks out, its too late to worry about whether it was right. You play to win, and thats all that matters.

If that applies to us, and it should, it also applies to the Russians and theiur lackeys.

May the best side win.......

 

[gumbyk]

Its a war zone guys. anything can and probably will happen. I hope the EU is excercising a healthy dose of realpolitik in this and not getting and attack of the guilts over being "fair", or "in the intersts of peace". We should be picking a side...the one best aligned to our belifs, or the one that serves our interests the best, and not worry about the morals of war. The morals of war are very important, provided you think about them before the shooting starts. Once the war breaks out, its too late to worry about whether it was right. You play to win, and thats all that matters.

If that applies to us, and it should, it also applies to the Russians and theiur lackeys.

May the best side win.......

And THAT is the thinking that led to WW1...

 

[GrauGeist]

Its a war zone guys. anything can and probably will happen. I hope the EU is excercising a healthy dose of realpolitik in this and not getting and attack of the guilts over being "fair", or "in the intersts of peace". We should be picking a side...the one best aligned to our belifs, or the one that serves our interests the best, and not worry about the morals of war. The morals of war are very important, provided you think about them before the shooting starts. Once the war breaks out, its too late to worry about whether it was right. You play to win, and thats all that matters.

If that applies to us, and it should, it also applies to the Russians and theiur lackeys.

May the best side win.......

I have to disagree, to be honest.

We are in the 21st century, there is no reason that we should even be conduction any form of warfare. Humanity has had well over 6,000 years to learn the lessons of war and yet, we still do it.

All we have managed to do, is create bigger, faster and better armed war machines and even still, with modern technology incorporated into warfare, one would assume that collateral damage would kept to a minimum. These advanced war machines are capable of determining friend or foe if deployed by trained personnel. The Rebels aimed the BUK at an aircraft assuming it was another military transport and the result was one of the oldest byproducts of warfare: innocent lives lost.

The civilians aboard the aircraft had little concern with the events going on below them, they had their minds on a million other things and at an altitude higher than Mount Everest, couldn't even see the conflict if they tried.

The U.S. and the EU have the ability to force any country to the table to immediately stop bloodshed through various means that do not include military action (I intenionally left out the UN because they are a waste of oxygen). Unfortunately, the politics and money behind it usually pulls the teeth out of any actions before they are implimented. It seems to be much easier to shoot someone in the face than it is to sit them down in a room and discuss options.

 

[parsifal]

releasing the dogs of war should not be something we do lightly. but if we do, we place our guys at risk, and our country's well being, by being hesitant. we need a decisive, measured response to this issue

William Tecumseh Sherman, just prior to the evacuation/sacking of Atlanta, had this to say in response to pleas for clemency on the city. he was replying to the city officials.

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, War is hell, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war [...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."

Peace is not secured in war by weakness of hesitancy. Moral navel gazing will not matter a damn to those that mean us harm. Its no different today than it was 150 years ago. by all means apply moral judgement and caution to prevent the war in the first place, or to clean up the mess that war leaves in ints wake. once war is joined, though, take all necessary steps to secure your goals, and not worry about the rights and wrongs of the war. this is something the Hamas turkeys are learning the hard way as we speak.

Once the war is over, there will be time enough for judgement of behaviour to occur. i wish the Hague was stronger than it is, but that is the mechanism we have to bring criminals of war to justice. i am not advocating criminal behaviour, neither am i advocating excessive violence or overly brutal behaviour. I am advocating application of decisive and definite action to bring about the end of the war. That means decisive application of sanctions at this stage. also decisive and substantial support for the Ukrainians, in the form or training and money and equipment. Calls for restraint, or balaming the Russians is a waste of time. they are applying their solutions to work to their strengths, and achieve the outcomes they desire. We have the superior strength, but we are still losing, because we are being indecisive in the application of our strength.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Well said. Thank you,

 

[N4521U]

As long as new generations replace old generations....
history will keep repeating itself.

 

[GrauGeist]

Parsifal, don't get me wrong, i firmly believe an ass-kicking does wonders to douchebags when diplomacy fails, but in this modern world, nations have the ability to shut down a nation IF they had the cajones to do so. Piddly sanctions here and there and a stern look accompanied by stern langaue and finger wagging is not enough. Shut down Russia's exports, shut down their port access world-wide, stop all imports bound for Russian destinations, freeze ALL world banking assets and freeze all passports. And this could be done immediately and with disasterous consequences for Putin IF it weren't for those persons who were afraid of losing out on their precious income...

This is why armies are still maintained, because it is easier to send nameless kids into battle than it is to lose out on a quarterly profit. So until persons are willing to lose a few dollars here and there for the sake of peace, this kind of bulls!t that we're seeing in the news, will continue...

 

[vikingBerserker]

You cannot reason with an unreasonable person.

 

[parsifal]

reason is the first casualty in war, along with truth

 

[michaelmaltby]

I'm not sure this will do it ...

Land for gas: Merkel and Putin discussed secret deal could end Ukraine crisis - Europe - World - The Independent

 

[vikingBerserker]

Now there is a somewhat one sided deal and I am really not sure Russia's signature is worth the paper it's written on. They already had a treat with Ukraine that they decided not to honor, why think all the sudden they are going to honor this one?

 

[imalko]

I'm not sure this will do it ...

Land for gas: Merkel and Putin discussed secret deal could end Ukraine crisis - Europe - World - The Independent

I think it just might. To my opinion this is exactly what the Russians want. They don't need more of Ukrainian territory. With Crimea in their hands (to which some would argue they have historical right anyway) they have secured their base on the Black Sea and therefore the Mediteranean. It is in their economical interest to have stability in the region and to keep trading relations with EU and foremost with Germany. From the outset this was about keeping the NATO out of the Ukraine. It is understandable that they're protecting their own interests and don't want it in their back yard. Last time something similar was attempted in American neighborhood (Cuban missile crisis) we almost had Third World War!
One could wonder if the real reason behind shooting down the Malaysian airliner was to prevent such a deal?