Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

PBS SHOW TO ARGUE ALLIES AS BAD AS NAZIS

OFF-Topic / Misc. Discuss PBS SHOW TO ARGUE ALLIES AS BAD AS NAZIS in the Current forums; Interesting fact about Hamburg was the firestorm only resulted in 45 days of lost production Thats my point Pb, it ...


Go Back   Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums > Current > OFF-Topic / Misc.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-26-2008, 08:01 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Njaco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South Jersey, United States
Posts: 7,059
Country:
Quote:
Interesting fact about Hamburg was the firestorm only resulted in 45 days of lost production
Thats my point Pb, it was targeted because of some war production unlike the Baedekker raids which were based solely on a travel guide. If what has been posted about this show is correct, that right there shows its a load of cr*p.

Quote:
"The aim of strategic bombing was . . . in large measure to kill German civilians by destroying the most densely populated parts of the country. And it only really worked when the level of destruction reached apocalyptic levels. It behooves us all to stare this reality in the face, by trying to understand what it was like to be on the receiving end of firestorms like the ones that engulfed Hamburg or Dresden."
Thats what I was trying to show was ridiculus.
__________________

"If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!"
Njaco is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 08:13 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
pbfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NIAGARA
Posts: 4,758
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Njaco View Post
Thats my point Pb, it was targeted because of some war production unlike the Baedekker raids which were based solely on a travel guide. If what has been posted about this show is correct, that right there shows its a load of cr*p.



Thats what I was trying to show was ridiculus.
I've been around too long in this world to listen to someones opinion and I'll make my own opinion after viewing it . Which in IMHO is the only way . I've just finished reading to the Right of the Line and this show might not be all that farfetched at least as far as the airwar.
__________________
pbfoot is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 08:38 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Njaco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South Jersey, United States
Posts: 7,059
Country:
You mentioned that book before. I'll have to look it up.

I agree, after seeing the show would be the time for opinion.
__________________

"If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!"
Njaco is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 08:43 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Soren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,954
I don't think it's that ridiculous Njaco, the reason being that it's true. Why else bomb the major cities when it was well known that the factories weren't located there ? Hitting the population has its own crippling effect.
__________________

We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Soren is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 08:50 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Abingdon, VA.
Posts: 168
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ View Post
Pinko idiots trying to re-write history.....
Kinda like they rewrote the Civil War. Oooops, did I say that?
Aaron Brooks Wolters is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 09:17 PM   #21
aka Dickcheese
 
Matt308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,897
Country:
What do you mean ABW, like the Civil War was about slavery (modern interpretation) when in actuality it was about $$ ?? Never forget the power of the pen.
__________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if
they made a difference in the world. But, the [U.S.]
Marines don't have that problem."
-- Ronald Reagan

Master of Duplicate Posts
Matt308 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 09:29 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Abingdon, VA.
Posts: 168
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt308 View Post
What do you mean ABW, like the Civil War was about slavery (modern interpretation) when in actuality it was about $$ ?? Never forget the power of the pen.
It has been turned into the war over slavery. Yes, slavery was one of the reasons but that was somewhat later in the war when Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation. The present day media has pretty much suppressed the real reasons for that war. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel slavery is right, I do not believe it should be allowed in any way shape or form, but let's keep the history books correct.
Aaron Brooks Wolters is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2008, 11:57 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Prescott Arizona USA
Posts: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by timshatz View Post
Or as Max Hastings put it, "The British precision bombed area targets and the Americans area bombed precision targets".

Gives food for thought.
The statement of "precision bombing" in the 1940's was a fantasy...It never happened ...The US could not do it in day light ...And the Brit's could not hit the broad side of a barn at night..It was propaganda..And the start of the US's BS of a nice clean sort of war to make the American people feel good ..That's still happening to day in Iraq..

One thing to get this thread back on track...Did the Allies know the Stalin was such a butcher at the time .. Or did he show his colors after the war..Roosevelt was thinking he had Stalin all cover ...Stalin played him like a fidel

( not busting the Brit's balls its just with the tec they had at the time it was hard to do in day light ..Let a lone at night..Hats off to the hard fighting RAF flyers..)
Haztoys is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 12:19 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
wilbur1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Escondido,Ca
Posts: 2,118
Country:
War is war if they or you dont like it go start your own little country. what the germans at the time did was wrong and that is what EVERY AMERICAN fought against the japanese also did their own holocaust AGAINST THIER OWN PEOPLE! Say what you want against the US in ww2 ......but i will tell you 1 thing i will stand up and fight for what MY country did!



Im an american citizen and a soldier everybody else can KISS my a##
__________________

Dont shoot him...... It will just make him angry.
wilbur1 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 12:20 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
Marcel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dordrecht
Posts: 2,587
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haztoys View Post
The statement of "precision bombing" in the 1940's was a fantasy...It never happened ...
617th squadron showed differently. They did some pretty accurate bombing on several occasions. It could be done when one had the opportunity and will to do so.
__________________

"I'm no hero. Soldiers on the ground, they are heroes. In an aircraft you can always evade the bullets."
-Jan Linzel, Dutch fighter pilot
Marcel is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 12:34 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
Old Wizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lethbridge AB
Posts: 102
Country:
You've got to remember that many of the folks that operate in the world of the university don't have that good a grasp on the real world and tend to lean a bit leftish. It's hard to find much good to say about a major war other than the results were satisfactory. As far as atrocities go, the folks in Southeast Asia, Africa and Central America could show us a thing or two.
Old Wizard is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 12:41 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Marcel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dordrecht
Posts: 2,587
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Wizard View Post
You've got to remember that many of the folks that operate in the world of the university don't have that good a grasp on the real world.
Now where did you get that idea? They are people living in the real world like you and me.
__________________

"I'm no hero. Soldiers on the ground, they are heroes. In an aircraft you can always evade the bullets."
-Jan Linzel, Dutch fighter pilot
Marcel is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 12:54 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Prescott Arizona USA
Posts: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur1 View Post
War is war if they or you dont like it go start your own little country. what the germans at the time did was wrong and that is what EVERY AMERICAN fought against the japanese also did their own holocaust AGAINST THIER OWN PEOPLE! Say what you want against the US in ww2 ......but i will tell you 1 thing i will stand up and fight for what MY country did!



Im an american citizen and a soldier everybody else can KISS my a##
I think I came across way wrong here.. ..I to am American and support my country ..And even the war in Iraq.. Just think the bomb was not as precision as history makes it out to be ..And my statements were not against the US in ww2 at all.. Its just with the tec at the time it was hard to get bombs that close..And "I" feel the the Germans and Japanese started it and they got what was coming to them to stop what they started...I to will and have on this forum stood up for what MY country did ...No shame here..

I'm one who would like to see us get the job done in Iraq ..This nice war gets more American kids killed ..Then if we would get ugly with them and I wish we would get it done ...And I'm agains the nice way of war .. Its sort of like nice jails ..Does not work...

Its called WAR for a reason...Sorry if I came across wrong and uppset you Wilbur..They started it and we did what it took to stop it ..
Haztoys is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 09:33 AM   #29
Hop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 301
Quote:
Almost all the bombing done by Bomber Command was area bombing because the couldn't get accurate enough to hit specific targets
45% of the bombing done by BC was area bombing, 55% attacks on precision targets.

Quote:
Interesting fact about Hamburg was the firestorm only resulted in 45 days of lost production
Bear in mind that Hamburg was the largest armaments centre in Germany, and that the city suffered an equivalent to total loss of production for a significant period. As Middlebrook puts it:

Quote:
The general conclusion was that the Battle of Hamburg caused a loss of war production equivalent to the normal output of the entire city for 1.8 months of full production. Output returned to 80 per cent of normal within five months but full recovery was never achieved.
He gives as an example U boat production, with estimates that lost production accounted for 23 - 27 boats.

Quote:
I don't think it's that ridiculous Njaco, the reason being that it's true. Why else bomb the major cities when it was well known that the factories weren't located there ?
Factories were located in the cities. The German police report on the damage at Hamburg, for example, lists the following destruction:

Industrial and war-industry firms 580
Warehouses 7
Office buildings 379
Commercial premises (mostly shops etc.) 2,632
Banks, insurance offices etc. 88
Public utility premises 13
Transport premises 13
Public offices 145
Nazi Party offices 112
Military premises 80
Police, fire and civil-defence premises 197
Bridges 12

But the theory behind area bombing is that even the factories that aren't hit directly still lose production, because of disruption to water, gas and electricity supplies, blocked roads, scattered workers etc.

Middlebrook gives the example of Blohm und Voss shipyards in Hamburg, which suffered very little direct damage.

Before the raids on Hamburg, Blohm und Voss had 9,000 workers show up each day.

The day after the heaviest raid, 300 turned up for work.

A couple of days later 1,500 were back at work.

On the 1st September, more than a month after the raids, 5000 were showing up each day.

1st October, 2 months later, it was 7000.

1st November, 3 months after the raids, 7500.

In Hamburg war industries as a whole, on 1st October, 2 months after the raids, the percentage reduction in workers:

German men - 37.7%
German women - 55.4%
Foreign men - 60.2%
Foreign women - 66.7%
Total - 47.7%

And the reduction wasn't because the workers had been killed. The total death toll at Hamburg was about 45,000 out of a population of about 1.5 million. That's about 3%.

Not only was the percentage decline in industrial workers much larger than the overall percentage killed, but it was much larger in absolute numbers. At the start of October, 2 months after the bombing, attendance at Hamburg's war industries was down from 634,000 to 331,300. Over 300,000 workers had disappeared.

The difference between bombing (on all sides) and the holocaust is that bombing was intended to win the war by attacking the enemy. The holocaust was intended to eradicate those designated as enemies, even though they were doing nothing to help the enemy war effort.

Last edited by Hop : 06-27-2008 at 09:35 AM.
Hop is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2008, 09:33 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Phila, Pa
Posts: 2,613
Country:
[quote=Haztoys;368328]The statement of "precision bombing" in the 1940's was a fantasy...It never happened ...The US could not do it in day light ...And the Brit's could not hit the broad side of a barn at night..It was propaganda..And the start of the US's BS of a nice clean sort of war to make the American people feel good QUOTE]

Haz, you might want to read Max Hasting's "Bomber Command" which goes into great depth on the subject. While it is very true that Bomber Command had terrible results in the begining of the war, Hasting's shows that they got much better as the war went on. Using Target Marking, Master Bomber, Bomb Mix, Offset Bombing, ect, they managed to drop the mean target error for bombs dropped to less than 400 yards. It's a good read and goes over the details far better than I can in a short post on the board.
timshatz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0
   

AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com Avitop.com


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86<