Pilots flew Northwest jet 150 miles past airport or Hey you missed my stop! - Aircraft of World War II

Bucksnort101 · 10-23-2009, 03:42 PM

Here is the big story of the week up here in Minneapolis. Seems the pilots of a Northwest Airliner overflew the MPLS/St. Paul Airport by 150 miles! Pilots story is they were in a heated discussion about shop work, authorities beleive the flight crew fell asleep.

Pilots flew Northwest jet 150 miles past airport | StarTribune.com

The flight path of Northwest flight 188

By JOAN LOWY , Associated Press

Last update: October 23, 2009 - 1:20 PM

Graphic: NWA Flight 188's flightpath

WASHINGTON - Controllers on the ground, pilots of other planes, even a flight attendant back in the cabin tried to alert the crew as the Northwest airliner zoomed past Minneapolis at 37,000 feet. Worried about who was actually at the controls, officials asked the crew to prove who they were by executing turns after they finally were contacted.

Officials are trying to sort out what happened aboard Flight 188 Wednesday night. The plane's cockpit voice and flight data recorders were delivered to the National Transportation Safety Board's Washington office Friday afternoon. However, the voice recorder is an older model that is only 30 minutes long, NTSB said, making it less helpful to investigators. Newer models have two-hour recordings.

With no response from the two pilots Wednesday night, the plane flew 150 miles past its destination before turning back.

On the ground, police and FBI agents prepared for the worst, and the Air National Guard put fighter jets on alert at two locations as the drama unfolded.

Pilots from two other planes in the vicinity were finally able to reach the pilots using a different radio frequency, a controllers union spokesman said. A flight attendant in the cabin also was able to contact them by intercom, said a source close to the investigation who wasn't authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity.

By that time, the Airbus A320 was over Eau Claire, Wis., and the pilots had been out of communication with air traffic controllers for over an hour. They turned back and landed safely in Minneapolis, the plane's scheduled destination.

The crew told authorities they were distracted during a heated discussion over airline policy, said the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the incident.

Investigators don't know whether the pilots may have fallen asleep, but fatigue and cockpit distraction will be looked into, NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said Friday.

Investigators probably will not interview the pilots until next week, he said. The pilots have been suspended from flying by Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest last year, while the airline also investigates.

The plane, en route from San Diego with 144 passengers and a crew of five, passed over Minneapolis at 37,000 feet just before 8 p.m. local time. Contact with controllers wasn't established until 14 minutes later, NTSB said.

Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "the Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."

Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said.

Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said

That was unsuccessful until two pilots working with Minneapolis controllers finally got through just before the plane turned around, Church said. Minneapolis controllers don't have the capability of using the Denver frequency, but pilots do, he said.

After re-establishing contact with the plane, controllers asked the pilot in charge to execute a series of turns to show he was in control of the aircraft, Church said.

"Controllers have a heightened sense of vigilance when we're not able to talk to an aircraft. That's the reality post-9/11," he said.

Passenger Lonnie Heidtke said he didn't notice anything unusual before the landing except that the plane was late.

The flight attendants "did say there was a delay and we'd have to orbit or something to that effect before we got back. They really didn't say we overflew Minneapolis. ... They implied it was just a business-as-usual delay," said Heidtke, a consultant with a supercomputer consulting company based in Bloomington, Minn.

Once on the ground, the plane was met by police and FBI agents. Passengers retrieving their luggage from overhead bins were asked by flight attendants sit down, Heidtke said. An airport police officer and a couple other people came on board and stood at the cockpit door, talking to the pilots, he said.

"I did jokingly call my wife and say, 'This is the first time I've seen the police meet the plane. Maybe they're going to arrest the pilots for being so late.' Maybe I was right," Heidtke said.

The pilots' explanation that they were distracted by shop talk "just doesn't make any sense," said Bill Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va. "The pilots are saying they were involved in a heated conversation. Well, that was a very long conversation."

The FAA is updating rules governing how many hours commercial pilots may fly and remain on duty. The NTSB also cautioned government agencies this week about the risks of sleep apnea contributing to transportation accidents.

In January 2008, pilots for two go! airlines fell asleep for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii. The plane passed its destination and was heading out over open ocean before controllers raised the pilots. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea.

B-17engineer · 10-23-2009, 04:08 PM

Boy, talk about over-shooting.

How do you make that kind of mistake?

Bucksnort101 · 10-23-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-17engineer

Boy, talk about over-shooting.

How do you make that kind of mistake?

We will probably never know for sure what happened. Indications are that this plane had a 30 minute looping cockpit recorder in it so I would suspect that the Pilots involved made dang sure they flew well over 30 munites longer so as to record over any screw ups.

DBII · 10-23-2009, 04:21 PM

I could not believe it. I can hear it now, the copilot was yelling why don't you just admit that you are lost and ask for directions and the pilot was screaming, I am not lost, I am taking the short cut

DBII

pbfoot · 10-23-2009, 04:24 PM

When I was in ATC in the 70's and 80's North West always made me wonder as not all of their pilots had the same limits for weather

syscom3 · 10-23-2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBII

I could not believe it. I can hear it now, the copilot was yelling why don't you just admit that you are lost and ask for directions and the pilot was screaming, I am not lost, I am taking the short cut

DBII

LMAO!!!

The pilot was a guy, and the copilot a girl.

vikingBerserker · 10-23-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBII

I could not believe it. I can hear it now, the copilot was yelling why don't you just admit that you are lost and ask for directions and the pilot was screaming, I am not lost, I am taking the short cut

DBII

Nice!

Vassili Zaitzev · 10-23-2009, 09:51 PM

Nice DB!

Wayne Little · 10-24-2009, 09:34 AM

Wow...that's unbelievable...

Wildcat · 10-24-2009, 10:52 AM

Didn't a similar thing happen recently in India, where both pilots were asleep?

wheelsup_cavu · 10-25-2009, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBII

I could not believe it. I can hear it now, the copilot was yelling why don't you just admit that you are lost and ask for directions and the pilot was screaming, I am not lost, I am taking the short cut

DBII

That's funny.

Wheels

syscom3 · 11-05-2009, 03:49 AM

Heres the FAA revocation order.

RabidAlien · 11-05-2009, 08:27 AM

Hmmmmm...is joining the "Mile High Club" worth that?

syscom3 · 11-05-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RabidAlien

Hmmmmm...is joining the "Mile High Club" worth that?

10-23-2009, 03:42 PM	#1
Bucksnort101 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,204	Pilots flew Northwest jet 150 miles past airport or Hey you missed my stop! Here is the big story of the week up here in Minneapolis. Seems the pilots of a Northwest Airliner overflew the MPLS/St. Paul Airport by 150 miles! Pilots story is they were in a heated discussion about shop work, authorities beleive the flight crew fell asleep. Pilots flew Northwest jet 150 miles past airport \| StarTribune.com The flight path of Northwest flight 188 By JOAN LOWY , Associated Press Last update: October 23, 2009 - 1:20 PM Graphic: NWA Flight 188's flightpath WASHINGTON - Controllers on the ground, pilots of other planes, even a flight attendant back in the cabin tried to alert the crew as the Northwest airliner zoomed past Minneapolis at 37,000 feet. Worried about who was actually at the controls, officials asked the crew to prove who they were by executing turns after they finally were contacted. Officials are trying to sort out what happened aboard Flight 188 Wednesday night. The plane's cockpit voice and flight data recorders were delivered to the National Transportation Safety Board's Washington office Friday afternoon. However, the voice recorder is an older model that is only 30 minutes long, NTSB said, making it less helpful to investigators. Newer models have two-hour recordings. With no response from the two pilots Wednesday night, the plane flew 150 miles past its destination before turning back. On the ground, police and FBI agents prepared for the worst, and the Air National Guard put fighter jets on alert at two locations as the drama unfolded. Pilots from two other planes in the vicinity were finally able to reach the pilots using a different radio frequency, a controllers union spokesman said. A flight attendant in the cabin also was able to contact them by intercom, said a source close to the investigation who wasn't authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. By that time, the Airbus A320 was over Eau Claire, Wis., and the pilots had been out of communication with air traffic controllers for over an hour. They turned back and landed safely in Minneapolis, the plane's scheduled destination. The crew told authorities they were distracted during a heated discussion over airline policy, said the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the incident. Investigators don't know whether the pilots may have fallen asleep, but fatigue and cockpit distraction will be looked into, NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said Friday. Investigators probably will not interview the pilots until next week, he said. The pilots have been suspended from flying by Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest last year, while the airline also investigates. The plane, en route from San Diego with 144 passengers and a crew of five, passed over Minneapolis at 37,000 feet just before 8 p.m. local time. Contact with controllers wasn't established until 14 minutes later, NTSB said. Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "the Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone." Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said. Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said That was unsuccessful until two pilots working with Minneapolis controllers finally got through just before the plane turned around, Church said. Minneapolis controllers don't have the capability of using the Denver frequency, but pilots do, he said. After re-establishing contact with the plane, controllers asked the pilot in charge to execute a series of turns to show he was in control of the aircraft, Church said. "Controllers have a heightened sense of vigilance when we're not able to talk to an aircraft. That's the reality post-9/11," he said. Passenger Lonnie Heidtke said he didn't notice anything unusual before the landing except that the plane was late. The flight attendants "did say there was a delay and we'd have to orbit or something to that effect before we got back. They really didn't say we overflew Minneapolis. ... They implied it was just a business-as-usual delay," said Heidtke, a consultant with a supercomputer consulting company based in Bloomington, Minn. Once on the ground, the plane was met by police and FBI agents. Passengers retrieving their luggage from overhead bins were asked by flight attendants sit down, Heidtke said. An airport police officer and a couple other people came on board and stood at the cockpit door, talking to the pilots, he said. "I did jokingly call my wife and say, 'This is the first time I've seen the police meet the plane. Maybe they're going to arrest the pilots for being so late.' Maybe I was right," Heidtke said. The pilots' explanation that they were distracted by shop talk "just doesn't make any sense," said Bill Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va. "The pilots are saying they were involved in a heated conversation. Well, that was a very long conversation." The FAA is updating rules governing how many hours commercial pilots may fly and remain on duty. The NTSB also cautioned government agencies this week about the risks of sleep apnea contributing to transportation accidents. In January 2008, pilots for two go! airlines fell asleep for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii. The plane passed its destination and was heading out over open ocean before controllers raised the pilots. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea. __________________ A 2006 study found that the average American walks about 900 miles a year. Another study found that Americans drink an average of 22 gallons of beer a year. That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles per gallon. Last edited by Bucksnort101; 10-23-2009 at 03:46 PM.

10-23-2009, 04:08 PM	#2
B-17engineer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,689	Boy, talk about over-shooting. How do you make that kind of mistake? __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe36UMRkRbk

10-23-2009, 04:21 PM	#4
DBII Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,429	I could not believe it. I can hear it now, the copilot was yelling why don't you just admit that you are lost and ask for directions and the pilot was screaming, I am not lost, I am taking the short cut DBII __________________ ~ Ladies and gentleman, this is your stewardess speaking. We regret any inconvenience the sudden cabin movement might have caused. This is due to periodic air pockets we encountered. There's no reason to be alarmed and we hope you enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?~

10-23-2009, 09:51 PM	#8
Vassili Zaitzev Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Stafford Springs, Connecticut Posts: 2,221	Nice DB! __________________ "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"- Winston Churchill.

10-24-2009, 09:34 AM	#9
Wayne Little Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Adelaide Sth. Aust. Posts: 12,511	Wow...that's unbelievable... __________________

10-23-2009, 04:24 PM	#5
pbfoot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 5,586	When I was in ATC in the 70's and 80's North West always made me wonder as not all of their pilots had the same limits for weather

10-24-2009, 10:52 AM	#10
Wildcat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Queensland Posts: 4,543	Didn't a similar thing happen recently in India, where both pilots were asleep? __________________

11-05-2009, 08:27 AM	#13
RabidAlien Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hurst, Texas Posts: 2,827	Hmmmmm...is joining the "Mile High Club" worth that? __________________ Pillage, then burn. Argue not with dragons, for thou art crunchy and go well on toast.

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