Too Tired to Fly - Aircraft of World War II

Vassili Zaitzev · 10-06-2009, 11:18 AM

I'm no aviation expert, so can some of the more knowledgable members tell me how long a flight crew should operate a day?

Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts - Yahoo! News

chip haehnel · 10-06-2009, 11:40 AM

Fourteen hour days are much easier in the cockpit now a days with glass instruments, only two in the pit instead of three and beaucoup automation. I believe the underlying complaint I see here is boredom, as well as giving the union brothers an oppertunity to fill more slots to cover the necessary hours. European businesses have been copitulating to this pressure for decades to their disadvantage.ch

ccheese · 10-06-2009, 11:58 AM

The U.S. military pilots have many a fourteen hour day. I flew as a crewman on P2V's, P-2's and C-130's, and 12
to 14 hour days were the norm. With the P-2's and C-130's, after arriving on station we always secured two
engines, which allower for a longer time on station. With automation, it's much easier now-a-days.

Charles

Vassili Zaitzev · 10-06-2009, 12:00 PM

Okay, thanks for the input. So 14 hour day shift are the norm for pilots then.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-06-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccheese

The U.S. military pilots have many a fourteen hour day. I flew as a crewman on P2V's, P-2's and C-130's, and 12
to 14 hour days were the norm. With the P-2's and C-130's, after arriving on station we always secured two
engines, which allower for a longer time on station. With automation, it's much easier now-a-days.

Charles

Not anymore, they have strict crew rest policies. Anything over 8 flight hours and we required extensions from the Col. Anything over 10 required at least a 1 star approval.

Goofy · 10-06-2009, 02:12 PM

I fly with a Dutch airline, on the A330 now, but used to be on the 737.....and I have to say, I was often quite fatigued. We did 6 day cycles where you would fly an early schedule the first three days, getting up at 03:40 in the morning, doing 2, 3 or 4 flights a day; followed by three days of late schedules, where you would end at 12 at night. Most days were 8 to 12 hour days. After this you would get three days off.

I found the transition from early to late very tiring, as well as the work load. The actual flying isn't very stressfull, just the preperation for each flight, hassle at the airports, loads of de-icing in the winters etc etc.
Also please keep in mind that these six days you sleep in hotels, which is not like your own bed; you always sleep less efficient in a hotel, strange noises, airco's that make a lot of noise, doors banging on the hall-way.
After a while I decided to go on a 80% schedule to get some more days off. As the 6th day often ended late (23:00 or in the night), the first morning of your days off was crap and on the third day of your leave you had to go to bed early as you would have to get up at 4 in the morning......so you actually one only has a day and a half off to do all the things you cant do when you are away...not a lot of weekends off as well, which means with a spouse that also works full-time, you don't see her or the kids a lot.
I am on the 330 doing intercontinental flights these days and the rules are muuuuch better!!! Loads more days off and basically less flights....I fully agree that there needs to be stricter rules for short-haul flights.....

Just my thoughts on it.....

Vassili Zaitzev · 10-06-2009, 03:23 PM

Interesting Goofy, thanks for sharing.

Butters · 10-06-2009, 06:45 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm getting on a plane, I'd like to hope that the aircrew will be well rested and alert.

Anybody who's ever had a job where you're often fatigued knows how easy it is to mess up things that are normally just a matter of routine.

I'll happily pay a few extra bucks to fly with a well-rested crew at the controls.

JL

RabidAlien · 10-06-2009, 09:43 PM

Amen to that.

Goofy · 10-07-2009, 03:25 AM

Thing is, with three or four flights a day, you often had only an hour inbetween flights. If you were running late, it meant trying to make up time to get the next flight airborne in time. Now I know one shouldn't rush things or shouldn't allow one-self to get rushed to make up time, but you do anyway, I think it is just a human reaction.
Some independant reasearch organizations, like the Dutch TNO have done independant research into pilots fatigue and acquiring jet-lag when working on very different time-schedules (so not time-difference related, but just getting up at different times all the time), and their conclusion was that the rest times should be much more stringent. However Governments don't want to take over these recommendations as it would mean a bit of a financial burden for the companies and if not everyone does it at the same time, puts one company in a disadvantage with another.
Anyways, like I said, I'm on intercontinental flights these days and mostly fly to AFrica, the Middle East and North America which don't give me much of a jet-lag.....flying to the East f*%ks up my bio-rhytm tho....but thats personal. Flying short haul just isn't all the glamour most people think it is.....

(It's a great job still!!!!!...don't get me wrong!!!!)

10-06-2009, 11:18 AM	#1
Vassili Zaitzev Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Stafford Springs, Connecticut Posts: 2,484	Too Tired to Fly I'm no aviation expert, so can some of the more knowledgable members tell me how long a flight crew should operate a day? Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts - Yahoo! News __________________ "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"- Winston Churchill.

10-06-2009, 11:40 AM	#2
chip haehnel Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Sharon Pa USA Posts: 12	Fourteen hour days are much easier in the cockpit now a days with glass instruments, only two in the pit instead of three and beaucoup automation. I believe the underlying complaint I see here is boredom, as well as giving the union brothers an oppertunity to fill more slots to cover the necessary hours. European businesses have been copitulating to this pressure for decades to their disadvantage.ch Last edited by chip haehnel; 10-06-2009 at 11:45 AM. Reason: punctuation

10-06-2009, 11:58 AM	#3
ccheese Older Than Dirt Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 7,988	The U.S. military pilots have many a fourteen hour day. I flew as a crewman on P2V's, P-2's and C-130's, and 12 to 14 hour days were the norm. With the P-2's and C-130's, after arriving on station we always secured two engines, which allower for a longer time on station. With automation, it's much easier now-a-days. Charles __________________ Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell

10-06-2009, 12:00 PM	#4
Vassili Zaitzev Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Stafford Springs, Connecticut Posts: 2,484	Okay, thanks for the input. So 14 hour day shift are the norm for pilots then. __________________ "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"- Winston Churchill.

10-06-2009, 02:12 PM	#6
Goofy Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lincolnshire UK, Bomber County Posts: 19	I fly with a Dutch airline, on the A330 now, but used to be on the 737.....and I have to say, I was often quite fatigued. We did 6 day cycles where you would fly an early schedule the first three days, getting up at 03:40 in the morning, doing 2, 3 or 4 flights a day; followed by three days of late schedules, where you would end at 12 at night. Most days were 8 to 12 hour days. After this you would get three days off. I found the transition from early to late very tiring, as well as the work load. The actual flying isn't very stressfull, just the preperation for each flight, hassle at the airports, loads of de-icing in the winters etc etc. Also please keep in mind that these six days you sleep in hotels, which is not like your own bed; you always sleep less efficient in a hotel, strange noises, airco's that make a lot of noise, doors banging on the hall-way. After a while I decided to go on a 80% schedule to get some more days off. As the 6th day often ended late (23:00 or in the night), the first morning of your days off was crap and on the third day of your leave you had to go to bed early as you would have to get up at 4 in the morning......so you actually one only has a day and a half off to do all the things you cant do when you are away...not a lot of weekends off as well, which means with a spouse that also works full-time, you don't see her or the kids a lot. I am on the 330 doing intercontinental flights these days and the rules are muuuuch better!!! Loads more days off and basically less flights....I fully agree that there needs to be stricter rules for short-haul flights..... Just my thoughts on it..... Last edited by Goofy; 10-07-2009 at 03:12 AM. Reason: some grammar and spelling....

10-06-2009, 03:23 PM	#7
Vassili Zaitzev Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Stafford Springs, Connecticut Posts: 2,484	Interesting Goofy, thanks for sharing. __________________ "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"- Winston Churchill.

10-06-2009, 06:45 PM	#8
Butters Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: South Shore of Nova Scotia Posts: 377	I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm getting on a plane, I'd like to hope that the aircrew will be well rested and alert. Anybody who's ever had a job where you're often fatigued knows how easy it is to mess up things that are normally just a matter of routine. I'll happily pay a few extra bucks to fly with a well-rested crew at the controls. JL

10-06-2009, 09:43 PM	#9
RabidAlien Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hurst, Texas Posts: 3,484	Amen to that. __________________ Pillage, then burn. Argue not with dragons, for thou art crunchy and go well on toast.

10-07-2009, 03:25 AM	#10
Goofy Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lincolnshire UK, Bomber County Posts: 19	Thing is, with three or four flights a day, you often had only an hour inbetween flights. If you were running late, it meant trying to make up time to get the next flight airborne in time. Now I know one shouldn't rush things or shouldn't allow one-self to get rushed to make up time, but you do anyway, I think it is just a human reaction. Some independant reasearch organizations, like the Dutch TNO have done independant research into pilots fatigue and acquiring jet-lag when working on very different time-schedules (so not time-difference related, but just getting up at different times all the time), and their conclusion was that the rest times should be much more stringent. However Governments don't want to take over these recommendations as it would mean a bit of a financial burden for the companies and if not everyone does it at the same time, puts one company in a disadvantage with another. Anyways, like I said, I'm on intercontinental flights these days and mostly fly to AFrica, the Middle East and North America which don't give me much of a jet-lag.....flying to the East f*%ks up my bio-rhytm tho....but thats personal. Flying short haul just isn't all the glamour most people think it is..... (It's a great job still!!!!!...don't get me wrong!!!!)

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