Best Aircraft in many different roles

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

Come now, did you write that with your fingers and toes crossed To be fair i'm a right ol' snob and know nothing about the P-38....So i'm going to read up about it, and "I'll be back"

[Gemhorse]

Well, with over 10,000 P-38's manufactured, they certainly spread them around too, but it remains that for my money, I feel the Mosquito pretty well did everything that was asked of it, and it did it all without any major teething troubles....it was 'economy' on wings at a time when everything was in short supply....All those variants were further developments based on the original theme of three basic design applications.

If the P-38 was to be expunged from service with all the 'accolades' it had gathered in an active WWII service of about the same timeframe it shared with the Mosquito, and also because of 'political expediency', it remained a great loss to the ongoing Allied Cause, as it was, with ongoing scraps like Korea developing....

Both aircraft shared the 'concentrated firepower' and both were exceptional at low or high altitude, although all the information I've managed to glean so far indicates the Mossie was easy and a delight to fly, in comparison to the P-38....and as far as mixing-it with single-eng/seat fighters, they were about the same as far as agility went, although I feel the Mosquito may have had an edge, as it had a greater wing area and wood flexes where metal tends to stress....De Havilland worked hard on that, and it breed a Legend....
They were both of around the same weight, tare and loaded, and both delivered impressive amounts of hardware.....

The Mosquito had a very good servicing record, not something these two aircraft had in common, but that may be that RAF & Commonwealth servicing was a more intensive regime, whereas US servicing was more a case of if something stuffed-up, it would then be fixed, and this may have been reflected in the high loss-rate due to engine problems....The Mossie wasn't built to last an exceptional time in service, but being wood there wasn't a material shortage and they sustained and repaired easier...

Probably, in the final analysis, both felt the emergence of the 'Jet-age' and more powerful radials, to a degree, and the cost of one to the other realised a difference in that with melting-down aircraft at War's end, the Mossie wasn't high on that list, being wooden, and kept going until the early plywood glues started to come unstuck....that's been the predicament all these years later with the surviving ones....- If the majority of P-38's were just bulldozed and burnt where they were, that's really the difference between those of the UK, and the USA - Nothing is wasted in the UK and Commonwealth if it still has some use....Luckily there's 'Chino' and alot appears to have hung around there to reward the ardent restorer....but to all those P-38 fans out there, not many were P-38's unfortunately....To reproduce them now would be extremely expensive, and even though wood is getting pricey these days, for me it's a dream coming true that someone has got the nouse to figure-out how to rebuild the Mosquitos....There is huge support building, to get and keep both Merlins & Allisons a-going, and it's a testament to the Vision some in the Warbird Fraternity have got....

I'm really of the belief that the DH Mosquito was the 'Best All-rounder', [probably 'cause I'm just stubborn too], but it certainly was the case as far as England & Commonwealth were concerned....and I guess because as smaller nations, we don't have as much storage space, and a 'consumer-disposable' type attitude to all things; - If they stop working, we try to fix 'em again....

Whatever they cost brand-new, the DH Mosquito sure gave back value for money, in bullets, bombs, rockets and Victory.......

[plan_D]

I'm still impressed with that writing.

Who said the P-38 was in more theatres than the Mosquito? P-38 - CBI, Pacific, Europe, Med. Mosquito - CBI, Pacific, Europe, Russia. That's four each, by my count.

There must have been something the P-38 was doing wrong if the US asked for Mosquitos in the Pacific. Anywho, Germhorse - you missed out that the Mosquito was the first aircraft to bomb Berlin in daylight.

Also, it rained bombs on Goebbels parade.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

much to our ammusmant..............

[Lightning Guy]

P-38s did fly in Russia. Shuttle missions by the 15th AF initiated in Italy, hit targets in Eastern Europe, refueled and rearmed in Russia, then hit Eastern Europe on the way back to Italy. Several of these missions were escorted by P-38s.

The P-38 carried (and successful dropped) 2 21in torpedoes (more and larger torps than the Mossie carried.

In terms of aircombat, the P-38F (no combat or dive flaps) could turn inside the P-51. The later versions were able to turn with the Spitfire. There is no way the Mossie could manage that. Nor could the Mossie match the P-38 in the vertical plane. In any sort of airfight, the P-38 held a huge advantage.

[Gemhorse]

Thankyou, plan_D.....I did mention it a couple of posts back about Berlin...

I guess it's hard for some though, to accept that an aircraft that was conceived and built very quickly, out of plywood and balsa, had a coupla hairy-assed Merlins bolted-on and TWO chaps to fly & fight, where-ever, when-ever and how-ever, to get their job done with legendary flair, could absolutely, possibly be better than anything that America built....even though the Brits gave them a few Sqn.'s worth of them because they were so good.....Next they will say the P-38 was SO sought-after, they couldn't do their own PR...????

It'll be a rainy day in hell before I concede the P-38 was a better aircraft than the All-rounder Mosquito....

That's why they made the Hornet, the P-38 would've been a wheelbarrow by comparison.....

To give the same blurry answer the US Admin still gives to any too-tough-to-answer questions, as to why they suddenly trashed P-38's at War's end in favour of the Mustang, another 'inline', albeit single-seater, after ALL the hoot n' holler about how great P-38's are, does not suffice....especially when the radials were in ascendency, prior to Jet aircraft....and as to P-38's being too 'war-weary'???...what wasn't by then....

The Mosquito lived-on [and will live-on] because it was a better All-rounder......................period

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

Nor could the Mossie match the P-38 in the vertical plane. In any sort of airfight, the P-38 held a huge advantage.

It's no shame to say " Don't be scared to run away, because you live to fight another day" On it's terms the mosquito could take on anything German, except prehaps the Me 262. You cannot put the P-38 on the same pedestal as the 'Mossie'. I say this again, if the stakes were you life would you take a P-38 over Berlin in daylight?
How can you come to a conclusion the Mosquito was one of the best aircraft from WW2? Well, the Germans tried to copy it and failed! See the Ta 154.
They tried to beat it, and yes that failed too. See the Me 410. I think it's very fair to say the Luftwaffe never successfully dealt with the mosquito until the Me 262 came on tap. Can you really make this claim for the P-38. How many aces were there in the P-38 in ETO? How many German aircraft were shot down by the P-38?

Everything the Mosquito was asked to do it did with flying colours..It brought death to the German 'Tip and run' raiders, despite the high regard of the Me 410 or Fw 190. It was asked to go for the V-1s, again a job well done. It sunk U-boots. It could take on the He219 in it's own back yard.

It's ultimate accolad was the American's wanted it! Asked General 'Hap' Arnold.

[plan_D]

I wouldn't consider escorting bombers to Russia as actually being in the Russian theatre. If you're considering that, then the Mosquito was in the mid-east. As, if I remember correctly, they flew out to the CBI from Iraq.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and lanc attacked the tirpitz in norway from bases in russia, does that mean they flew in the eastern european theatre??

[Gemhorse]

Further notes reveal that Hap Arnold was so taken with the Mosquito, he had the traffic stopped in Washington D.C. so Geoffrey De Havilland could put on a half-hour display to impress Arnolds High Command friends, when he had instigated this tour after first seeing it demo-ed in UK...He tried hard to bargain for some, even offering P-51's as a swap...He was turned-down on that, but the UK released Canadian-produced B-VII's [5] and 35 B.XX's, which were later succeeded by over a 100 PR XVI's and some T.III's for training...

Also, the President's son, Col. Elliot Rooseveldt commanded a USAAF unit in N.Africa equipped with P-38 F-4's, but had tried-out a B.IV Mossie, finding it was faster and had greater range....another one who got 'hooked' on them, and pushed for them for US service....

The 8th AF 25th BG, 653 & 654 BS's were the main users of them in the ETO...they returned them at War's end...[how nice...they scrapped their P-38's though...]

The Mossie was also the first to PR Berlin, 8th March 1943....

The Mossie also PR'd Peenemunde, 2nd June 1943, first discovering the V2 and on 28th Nov. that year, spotted the first VI launch-site in France, Mosquitos eventually accounting for 600 of the incoming VI's....

They not only shot the crap out of shipping, they were also used for anti- U-Boat work, cannons, rockets AND depth-charges being used....

No way was the P-38 comparable to the Mosquitos' vast range of services, even the un-armed PR's could accommodate attacks by Fw-190's AND 262's, they evolved their own 'corkscrew' manuoevre if they were bounced...Fw's didn't handle the rare air at altitude, and had to get up a l'il dive to gain on the Mossie...that was probably why they developed the Ta-152 series, especially the high-altitude model....

The Mosquito was the biggest pain in Germany's ass of any particular Allied aircraft....that was a stated fact....right from their debut.....

The P-51 was the greatest US fighter of the War, equipping all but one FG [P-47's of 56th FG was the only other...] by War's end in the ETO....
Basically, the P-38 was the US's first long-range escort fighter, but it was really a 'stop-gap' fighter that was replaced by P-47'S & 51's.....

The DH Mosquito was THE BEST ALL-ROUNDER OF WWII......period

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Gemhorse

Further notes reveal that Hap Arnold was so taken with the Mosquito, he had the traffic stopped in Washington D.C. so Geoffrey De Havilland could put on a half-hour display to impress Arnolds High Command friends, when he had instigated this tour after first seeing it demo-ed in UK...He tried hard to bargain for some, even offering P-51's as a swap...He was turned-down on that, but the UK released Canadian-produced B-VII's [5] and 35 B.XX's, which were later succeeded by over a 100 PR XVI's and some T.III's for training...

Also, the President's son, Col. Elliot Rooseveldt commanded a USAAF unit in N.Africa equipped with P-38 F-4's, but had tried-out a B.IV Mossie, finding it was faster and had greater range....another one who got 'hooked' on them, and pushed for them for US service....

The 8th AF 25th BG, 653 & 654 BS's were the main users of them in the ETO...they returned them at War's end...[how nice...they scrapped their P-38's though...]

The Mossie was also the first to PR Berlin, 8th March 1943....

The Mossie also PR'd Peenemunde, 2nd June 1943, first discovering the V2 and on 28th Nov. that year, spotted the first VI launch-site in France, Mosquitos eventually accounting for 600 of the incoming VI's....

They not only shot the crap out of shipping, they were also used for anti- U-Boat work, cannons, rockets AND depth-charges being used....

No way was the P-38 comparable to the Mosquitos' vast range of services, even the un-armed PR's could accommodate attacks by Fw-190's AND 262's, they evolved their own 'corkscrew' manuoevre if they were bounced...Fw's didn't handle the rare air at altitude, and had to get up a l'il dive to gain on the Mossie...that was probably why they developed the Ta-152 series, especially the high-altitude model....

The Mosquito was the biggest pain in Germany's ass of any particular Allied aircraft....that was a stated fact....right from their debut.....

The P-51 was the greatest US fighter of the War, equipping all but one FG [P-47's of 56th FG was the only other...] by War's end in the ETO....
Basically, the P-38 was the US's first long-range escort fighter, but it was really a 'stop-gap' fighter that was replaced by P-47'S & 51's.....

The DH Mosquito was THE BEST ALL-ROUNDER OF WWII......period

I never said the Mossie was anything other than a fine aircraft, It's primary roll is as a bomber where it excelled. The P-38 was a fighter where it excelled. Better is relative. The P-38 was capable of a wider range of rolls with less aircraft modification than the Mossie. Your argument above is primarily shipping and PR work, both things the P-38 excelled at especialy the planes based on H or later versions.

The early P-38s in Africa didn't use external tanks often, once the newer models G/H for instance they flew alongside the Mossies in every respect.

What everybody is missing here is that the two planes complimented each other doing a range of jobs other planes simply could not do.

Everything the Mossie did the P-38 did or could do had the need existed (mines, patrol) and a couple more, like air ambulance. The P-38s shot a lot of shipping up, but as a fighter it's preasence as escort or attack was in more demand than patrol work. something the Mossie did because it was available for those tasks.

When Dolittle decided to go to P-51s, there were several reasons:
Cost incl maintenance the early P-38s had problems.
Quantity I think there were 7 P-38 F/Gs in the ETO and the P-51s were flooding in at that time - the P-38s were still single sourced, and still much in demand everywhere else.
Political The P-38s were available when the bombers were being slaghtered. It would have been political suicide to admit it could do the job.

It was only stop gap in that there were never the numbers to do everything that was asked of it.

At wars end 70% of the aircraft the US had were destroyed, the last of the P-38s were destroyed in early 1950 (witnessed by Martin Caiden) again a cost/supply issue.

The Mustang was an excelent aircraft but the P-38L was better in every respect except visibility and the P-51B/D carried a greater percentage of it's fuel inboard than the P-38L. and of course cost/maintenance. Cost is valid when your talking 30,000 planes and the need to have the very best is passed.

You are certainly entitiled to your opinion.

[plan_D]

The Mosquito was used as air ambulance too.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Mosquito was used as air ambulance too.

I should have assumed that.

If those guys could stuff an extra pilot in a P-51 and P-38 cocpits and fly them home I'm sure a way can be found to carry a wounded man.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

not just one, some mossies could carry 6 men- and get this, they were actually in the plane, not freezing their nuts off in stupid pods, what a novel concept...............

AND the mossie was used in the civilian world, was the P-38??

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

After a very brief read up about the P-38, i'll have to agree with the Britsh opinion that was summed up at the time, that being "not likely to be of any use for anything except convoy escort and against the occasional unescorted bomber"

Sorry, the P-38 just did not cut the mustard in Europe. It had a inherent design weakness called aerodynamic compressibilty. How the hell could it do P/R work when the cockpit heating was nonexistent! The engines were a problem too.