Best Fighter

[Nonskimmer]

Originally Posted by evangilder

City Councilman ejected from studio

T. Bubba Bechtol, part time City Councilman from Midland, TX, was asked on a local live radio talk show the other day just what he thought of the allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners. His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner's scrotum to a car's battery cables will save one American GI's life, then I have just two things to say":

"Red is positive"
"Black is negative"


I couldn't agree more.

[plan_D]

Haha. Brilliant...I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Udet]

Hello Der Adler!

You made several strong points in your comments.

As you can see people, Der Adler is experiencing himself many of the things the German soldiers experienced throughout the countries Germany attacked and occupied.

Has any of you ever read a book from an individual named Omer Bertov, where he speaks of the German invasion of the USSR and the "barbarization of warfare"?

The book is mainly bunk, depicting absolutely all the German soldiers, officers and commanders as terrorific demons whose blood lust could not be ever satisfied; remorseless beasts, so the author says.

The opposite side of the coin is the soviet population of the areas where the Wehrmacht operated: they were all inoccent harmless hummingbirds simply exercising their holy sacred divine right of defending their homeland.

The German soldiers had no right to defend themselves from partisan attacks or after being ambushed by people wearing no military uniform: whenever they did, in a powerful reaction, the Germans were "criminals".

Do you realize how easy is for virtually any individual to approach the war in such a manner the serves his personal agenda?

Today, the USA is the attacker and invader. That the reasons Hitler had for launching Barbarossa are completely different to those the USA had to invade Irak in this century, might be true, but in the end the scenario is virtually the same. It is not my point to get further into silly details of comparing Barbarossa with the military invasion of the USA in Irak.

The fact is the world sees a foreign army occupying an independent nation where a big number of its inhabitants do not like the invaders; many of them will pick whatever weapon they can to kill as many invaders as possible.

Der Adler makes a strong point when he says you can not be gentle and nice with the people of the invaded country: many of them will be glad to kill you if they have the chance, so imposing fear becomes compulsory. You do not have time to detect with accuracy which ones are likely to be friendly from those who are to be hostile.

You assume all of them are your enemies. Is this what you are trying to point out Der Adler?

In many places, many German officers and soldiers applied the principle Der Adler is poiting here, and for that the Wehrmacht was put in trial and copped out as "tool for genocide"; a ruddy ridiculous verdict, laughable.

If the leaders of one nation decide to go to war it shall be assumed they are aware of the consequences of such a tremendous decision. All wars have brutality attached to them. I am sure many soldiers of the USA have committed acts of brutality against inoccent iraki civilians -the scandal of the abuses on Iraqi POWs conducted by the red neck punks the USA Army brought in to take care of the prisons would be a joke- , in one level or another, and such acts will continue to happen for as long as the USA army stays in Irak.

Violence of course brings more violence. The violence applied by the side keeping the upper hand (USA) can certainly help for a while, but the problem will certainly continue to be there, and the violence of the subjugated side (people of Irak) will certainly rose to the surface sooner or later.

All soldiers have all my respect and admiration; in the end they are the ones paying the high cost of the decisions of the lunatics in power.

Der Adler, i tell you all this with all due respect, and again, admiration. I wish you the best and that soon you can get out of there and make it home safe; there must be some people waiting for you.

Cheers!

I wish I had time to reply in this thread.... but it will have to wait till the weekend.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Udet

Hello Der Adler!

You made several strong points in your comments.

As you can see people, Der Adler is experiencing himself many of the things the German soldiers experienced throughout the countries Germany attacked and occupied.

Has any of you ever read a book from an individual named Omer Bertov, where he speaks of the German invasion of the USSR and the "barbarization of warfare"?

The book is mainly bunk, depicting absolutely all the German soldiers, officers and commanders as terrorific demons whose blood lust could not be ever satisfied; remorseless beasts, so the author says.

The opposite side of the coin is the soviet population of the areas where the Wehrmacht operated: they were all inoccent harmless hummingbirds simply exercising their holy sacred divine right of defending their homeland.

The German soldiers had no right to defend themselves from partisan attacks or after being ambushed by people wearing no military uniform: whenever they did, in a powerful reaction, the Germans were "criminals".

Do you realize how easy is for virtually any individual to approach the war in such a manner the serves his personal agenda?

Today, the USA is the attacker and invader. That the reasons Hitler had for launching Barbarossa are completely different to those the USA had to invade Irak in this century, might be true, but in the end the scenario is virtually the same. It is not my point to get further into silly details of comparing Barbarossa with the military invasion of the USA in Irak.

The fact is the world sees a foreign army occupying an independent nation where a big number of its inhabitants do not like the invaders; many of them will pick whatever weapon they can to kill as many invaders as possible.

Der Adler makes a strong point when he says you can not be gentle and nice with the people of the invaded country: many of them will be glad to kill you if they have the chance, so imposing fear becomes compulsory. You do not have time to detect with accuracy which ones are likely to be friendly from those who are to be hostile.

You assume all of them are your enemies. Is this what you are trying to point out Der Adler?

In many places, many German officers and soldiers applied the principle Der Adler is poiting here, and for that the Wehrmacht was put in trial and copped out as "tool for genocide"; a ruddy ridiculous verdict, laughable.

If the leaders of one nation decide to go to war it shall be assumed they are aware of the consequences of such a tremendous decision. All wars have brutality attached to them. I am sure many soldiers of the USA have committed acts of brutality against inoccent iraki civilians -the scandal of the abuses on Iraqi POWs conducted by the red neck punks the USA Army brought in to take care of the prisons would be a joke- , in one level or another, and such acts will continue to happen for as long as the USA army stays in Irak.

Violence of course brings more violence. The violence applied by the side keeping the upper hand (USA) can certainly help for a while, but the problem will certainly continue to be there, and the violence of the subjugated side (people of Irak) will certainly rose to the surface sooner or later.

All soldiers have all my respect and admiration; in the end they are the ones paying the high cost of the decisions of the lunatics in power.

Der Adler, i tell you all this with all due respect, and again, admiration. I wish you the best and that soon you can get out of there and make it home safe; there must be some people waiting for you.

Cheers!

I am sorry Udet, but that was not my point at all. Killing innocent women and children is not something that I want to do and as I said it is against my principle. All I was saying that inorder to fight fire you have to fight fire with fire. Defending yourself from insurgent attacks is not genocide you can not compare them.

Also you can not compare what we are doing right now to the invasion of Russia. We did not come here to take the land away from the Iraqis. We did not come here to take there natural resources. So please with all do respect do not compare Iraq to Operation Barbarossa or any thing that went on in WW2.

I will agree with you that the vast majority of soldiers had nothing to do with any attrocities that were committed in WW2 however you can not make them all out to be saints. Terrible things were committed by many soldiers, also by the Russians themselves. But you can not justify the action as a whole.

[Udet]

Hi Der Adler!

Of course I did not by any means suggested killing innocent civilians to subjugate an enemy is a valid thing. No way.

I am not interested in debating the reasons of the USA to invade Irak. There are so many versions available I do not have time to assess them all.

The core of my idea is that during war, the armed forces occupying an enemy country experience terrible situations that are allegedly to be handled in accordance with determined sets of rules. Reading the rules on the paper can be relatively easy for those moving forward to the front lines, but the situations of war can lead to specific circumstances when the rules certainly might not be complied.

I do not have any doubts you and most of the US soldiers in Irak are honorable people; I am sure there are thugs in the US Army over there though.

Many of you are bound to face extreme situations of danger and then anything can happen and innocent people will always suffer during wars.

Furthermore, if my view is correct, you are no longer fighting against an organized enemy army with clearly indentifiable military uniforms. You are now rather facing lose groups and bands of Iraki civilians or rebels armed with personal firearms, personal bombs and many kinds of home made explosive things, resorting to the hit and run tactics.

Do not me wrong it is not the point to compare the present day US invasion with Barbarossa. It was more about telling you are experiencing nearly equal if not identical situations to those experienced by the German soldiers, or by any other soldiers occupying enemy territory.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to disagree to some point. The Germans that did committ acts of trechary against the Russians or anyone else, new that these people were not partisans or military. They would slaughter whole towns and villages. There is a difference between that and what we are facing. You are correct in your assumption that we are no longer fighting a uniformed enemy which makes it much more dangerous and very like what the soldiers faced in Vietnam. Yes they did fight the Regulars as they called them who wore uniforms but anyone you encountered could have been the bad guy trying to kill you. And unfortunatly what I have learned is it is not like in the movies, the good guy does not always win. But we will overcome this and we will prevail.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

in real life the good guy never wins..........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No the good guy wins but at a high cost.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

his life??

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not his life, but the lives of many.

[Erich]

but in the end good always overcomes evil..........

the mideast struggle will never stop till the end of time. The fight in Iraq is only the beginning

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

you are correct on both accounts.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well there's been conflict in that area since the humans have been there..........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

yes just like the balkans.