The most important battle of WW2

the lancaster kicks ass · 12-05-2004, 07:31 AM

funny, they said no-one would be able to attack pearl harbour as it's too far from anyone else, but it happened...............

12-05-2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

funny, they said no-one would be able to attack pearl harbour as it's too far from anyone else, but it happened...............

A sneak attack on the ships in the harbor is a lot different from trying to invade.

the lancaster kicks ass · 12-05-2004, 07:49 AM

an air strike could have taken out most if the island's defences.............

12-05-2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

an air strike could have taken out most if the island's defences.............

You vastly underestimate the defenses of Perl Harbor and the number of troops defending it by the time of Midway.

There was no way the Japanese were going to stage a successful airstrike on PH at that time either. The entire carrier airpower of the Japanese navy would still have been outnumbered by more than two to one. The entire sealift capability of the Japanese fleet (which was poor throughout the war) would still have left them at the disadvantage in terms of the number of troops. Even at the time of the PH attack in Dec. 41 the Japanese did not think a sneak invasion was viable, but by 1942 it was virtually impossible.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-05-2004, 02:34 PM

Yes Udet, I am a Blackhawk Crewchief in Iraq right now at the time and yes I have seen combat. Well it has been a few days since I posted our internet was down but I am back now. I see that I missed a lot. As for the theories on why Hitler declared war on the US I agree with all the things that Lunatic said, however Udet has made some very fine points. As for the reason that the US thought that Pearl Harbor was safe from attack was the fact that most torpedos of that time could not operate in the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor however the Japenese redesigned there torpedos to make them work there. I think the one thing we can agree on is the fact that Hitler was a lunatic. And RG_Lunatic just lay off of the rest of world owing the US something. They dont.

12-05-2004, 06:21 PM

Hitler was an idiot, and he was evil, but he was not a lunatic.

If he'd have have been a lunatic, he'd have used nerve gas, which he had in abundant supply to destroy the Russians in Poland, and might have tried to use it against Britain (though only the V2 could probably have successfully delivered it by the time the had it in sufficient quantities to use). But he knew that if he did so, the odds were very good that the British would use their nerve gas against the German homeland, and he didn't want history to remember him as being responsible for making Germany uninhabitable.

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-06-2004, 11:37 AM

No was a lunatic aswell as being an idiot and evil. He was even documented as being diagnosed with a mental disorder.

Udet · 12-06-2004, 12:15 PM

DerAdler hello!

Thanks a lot for your reply!
One question, if you dont mind, do you ever heard or witnessed of any Iraki air force action against the USAAF?

Some of the things I am having the chance to read here, confirm Hitler is top favorite history character to thrown rotten eggs and tomatoes at.

Fool, idiot, imbecile, demonic, evil, liar, manipulator, murder, insane, megalomaniac and a very vey long bla, bla, bla...

Really, and I mean it, if you continue to see history of WWII in terms of Heavenly Immaculate Archangels vs. sulphurous dark demons, you are likely to miss an important part of the show.

With all due respect, mr. RG_Lunatic, the soldiers of the USA in Europe were not saving the world from anyone or anything.

Furthermore, the sole idea of the US soldiers fighting in Europe in order to liberate the people of the USA from a "terrible danger" and to maintain the "freedom, liberty and democracy of the U.S.A." could not only be part of the Grimm Fairy Tales: is a laughable choice of arguments.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-06-2004, 12:22 PM

During Operation Iraqi Freedom the Iraqi Airforce did not launch any sorties against the USAAF or any of the coalition air forces. As a matter of fact they did not have much of an airforce left after the 1st Gulf War. Please do not take me wrong about my posts here with RG_Lunatic. I do not look at WW2 as a Heavenly Immaculate Archangels vs Sulphurous dark demons. I am deeply interested in History and wanted to major in History before my college funds went dry. When my service with the Army is finished I plan on continueing my education in History primarily European. I just happened to get caught in this argument with RG_Lunatic because he seems to have some grudge against the world. Anyhow you have made some very interesting points to this discussion, Thanks.

Udet · 12-06-2004, 04:10 PM

Hello DerAdler!

thanks for your kind remarlks.

Sorry, but I did not put it in a very clear manner: I knew you were just taking it on RG_Lunatic when you said Hitler "was insane, idiot and evil".

I should have figured it out; during the first war in Irak over a decade ago, Hussein´s army was large and powerful; perhaps not up to USA´s standards, but no one can deny it was powerful.

The question should have been: were there any air combats during the first war in Irak? If I recall correctly, there were several Mig29´s in Hussein´s inventory.

)

My point here is I am amazed to read certain comments from people whose knowledge about WWII is, or should be, a bit above the "average".

"On September 1st, 1939, one of the most evil forces humankind has ever experienced unleashed its pure naked dark fury in an attempt to subjugate and exterminate the peoples of the world...."

While such version might please many, I know it was not like that. As I said it is laughable.

You -not you DerAdler

)- apparently fail to notice that with 2 guys such as Hitler and Stalin in office, only things like those we know happened could be the outcome.

The soviet communist regime killed and tortured people like no other regime in history; yet to be added are those murdered and tortured in the many countries where such a real piece of jewelry was put to practice.

MP-Willow · 12-06-2004, 04:57 PM

Hello all this topic is really getting interesting.

For Midway, the USN had a lot of luck in understanding, breaking, and useing the IJN codes to know where the attack was. But I would not say Yamamoto planned poorly. This was his last great strtke to try and take out the USN. He was a great planner and unlike most of the Military command understood the USA and her industrial ability. Midway could have stil gone either way.

As for Hitler, yes he was evil and very controling, but I think he was smarter then most will admit. His ability to speak to great masses of people, to rebuilt Germany, that has some merit. But he would not or could not stop with that.

Now having Hitler and Stalin in the same decade was just shear doom for Europe. Eastern Europe was doomed to be eaten up and carved anew again it was just time. Chamberland and the west tried to do everything they could to avoid war and even not admit what was hapening. They courted Stalin because he was the slightly lesser Evil of the two, and had not had anounced plans for world domination. In that he as a step above Hitler.

GermansRGeniuses · 12-06-2004, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

No was a lunatic aswell as being an idiot and evil. He was even documented as being diagnosed with a mental disorder.

What, Parkinsons?

Being a lunatic and being a cruel sadist are two different things...

Also, he never saw what he was commanding done, thus he could have no real sympathy...

Medvedya · 12-06-2004, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermansRGeniuses

What, Parkinsons?

People aren't sure. Granted, in the famous last bit of film, where he's talking to the Hitler Youth boys you can see that he's shaking like a leaf. However, medical minds say that since he was a stress-monster from an early age, this might have been a physical manifestation of hyper-tension. (which would be understandable!)

His physician, Dr Morrell, is widely discredited as a quack, and by 1945 was prescribing him enough drugs to fill a chemists. Many of these foul medicines were cocaine based - hense the mood swings between rage and euphoria. In short - what a mess!

GermansRGeniuses · 12-06-2004, 09:03 PM

Yeah, I know about all that, but I think Parkinsons is logical for him...

Anyway, has anyone seen that movie about him?

Der untergang - Hitler und das ende des III Reichs

Anyway, speaking of his shaking hand, the bit of film I've seen is the one where he shakes some soldiers' hands, though I'm not sure if they were Hitlerjugend...

12-07-2004, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

No was a lunatic aswell as being an idiot and evil. He was even documented as being diagnosed with a mental disorder.

Who diagnosed it? Please provide a reference so we can see if this is a legitimate diagnosis, or one that serves someone's interests.

In his last years, he was heavily addicted to amphetamines and opiates. But was he "crazy", it depends on your definition. It is not even clear if he was a psychopath, there is no evidence he personally enjoyed killing, Hitler's hatred was largely abstract.

Still, the fact is he had tons of nerve gas which he could certainly have deployed against the Soviets. Had he done so, he would have wiped out most of the Soviet army. However, he knew that if he did so the repercussions for Germany were that it would almost surely become a wasteland and there would be no future Germany at all. When his subordinates were arguing to use the gas, he forbade it. In the end, when all was lost, he put the well being of the German people first.

=S=

Lunatic