The most important battle of WW2

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 03:39 PM

No, no he didn't - I'm sorry to say. Guderian advised Rommel to move his Panzer Divisions to the coast so they could react quickly to any attack, wherever on the coast it happened. Rommel, being afraid of the Allied air power, kept all his Panzer divisions back and also allowed two Panzer divisions to be in the south of France.
If Guderian had been Commander in the West then the Western Allies would have had a much harder time. Air power was great but Rommel was too scared of it to think clearly.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 03:42 PM

Well that may have been because the Luftwaffe had already lost air superiority, the allied aircraft could pretty much fly wherever they wanted on D-Day.

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 04:30 PM

He shouldn't have been so scared of them though. Guderian was right but Rommel refused to listen.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 04:43 PM

You are correct with that.

01-07-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

He shouldn't have been so scared of them though. Guderian was right but Rommel refused to listen.

That is easy to say now with 20/20 hindsight. But had Guderian prevailed, the Panzers been moved up, and wiped out by Allied air attacks before D-Day, you'd be singing the opposite tune right?

Once moved forward it would have been much easier to pin them and prevent them from going where they were needed.

The real flaw was that Hitler had to authorize the movements of those Panzers. He was sleeping and no one dared wake him so they were not able to react to D-Day until it was a done-deal.

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 05:29 PM

That is true, I had read about that no one wanted to wake Hitler and get permission to bring them forward. That was a great flaw.

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 05:30 PM

No, I wouldn't be saying anything different because that wouldn't have happened. Had the Panzer Divisions been waiting behind the beach then Caen De Canal bridge wouldn't have been a problem and 21st Panzer Division would have been sweeping the beach heads before Allied armour even came ashore.

I can say it would have worked now, and Guderian said it would have worked then. He was right, Rommel should have listened but didn't. He made a mistake, it is unfortunate Rommel cannot give his post-war opinion on things such as Guderian did.

The thing about Hitler not being awoken, wouldn't have been a problem and Rommel moved the Panzers forward before D-Day. We're not talking June preparations, this was weeks before D-Day even happened. Rommel was mistaken in his thinking, Guderian was right.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 05:32 PM

Yes but Rommel still did not have control of the Panzers.

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 05:36 PM

Rommel was in command of the Atlantic Wall, sub-ordinate only to Von Runstedt. Guderian confronted Von Runstedt, who was willing to move the Panzers forward until Rommel disagreed. Von Rundstedt then changed sides and went with Rommel.
It was Rommels flawed thinking that sealed D-Day. Don't get me wrong, he was a great military mind that made a mistake. As I said, it's unfortunate he cannot reflect on the war. Guderian made some mistakes too, and he got to admit them in Panzer Leader (1957).

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 05:38 PM

I dont know I always thought he could not move them because he did not have control over them, only Hitler did and he was sleeping.

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 05:51 PM

You're talking 6th June here. I'm talking weeks before. On 6th June, Rommel was in Germany visiting his wife for her 50th birthday. He wasn't even at his post. He couldn't have expected an invasion on that day though.

It's a huge credit to the Allied forces that they practically caught the Germans with their pants down.

01-07-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

No, I wouldn't be saying anything different because that wouldn't have happened. Had the Panzer Divisions been waiting behind the beach then Caen De Canal bridge wouldn't have been a problem and 21st Panzer Division would have been sweeping the beach heads before Allied armour even came ashore.

I can say it would have worked now, and Guderian said it would have worked then. He was right, Rommel should have listened but didn't. He made a mistake, it is unfortunate Rommel cannot give his post-war opinion on things such as Guderian did.

The thing about Hitler not being awoken, wouldn't have been a problem and Rommel moved the Panzers forward before D-Day. We're not talking June preparations, this was weeks before D-Day even happened. Rommel was mistaken in his thinking, Guderian was right.

So you are suggesting that the Germans should have positioned their Panzers near the beaches all over the coasts of France? Or are you suggesting they knew in advance the Allied attack would be in Normandy rather than in Calaise as we know they really expected?

And had they been positioned as you describe, what would have saved them from Allied bombing? The Allies would surely have known exactly where they were and would have pulverized them with heavy bomber strikes.

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 05:55 PM

The Germans thought that the invasion was to come at Calaise. The diversion army that Patton was in command of in England with the rubber and wooden tanks and stuff helped with that and the fact that the allies fed German agents with false intelegence.

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 05:59 PM

10 Panzer Divisions were in France in June 1944. There is a road network running right across the northern coast of France, giving access to everywhere from Cherbourg to Calais.
Place those 10 Panzer Divisions behind the beaches, with easy access to the road network. Have you just tried to tell me that heavy bomber raids would be used on a Panzer division? Do you think I mean actually right behind the beaches? What makes you think they'll know about the 10 Panzer Divisions? They failed to pay attention to two SS Panzer Divisions in Holland September 1944.

I don't think you've read up on this. Only from the Allied point of view, if at all. I advise you to read Panzer Leader - Guderian and Panzer Battles - Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin (Ia to Rommel in Africa) both talk of D-Day and the German preparations. Both agree in the claim that Rommel was wrong.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-07-2005, 06:06 PM

I am not arguing that Rommel was wrong, but the fact that Rommel did not have control over his tanks. As for right behind the beaches probably not on the day of the invasion that would be too risky to the landing forces however if you put them there too far out in advance they would be an easy target out in the open. The Germans would not have been able to do so anyhow, they did not know exactly where the invasion was going to be.