The most important battle of WW2

[the lancaster kicks ass]

thanks for banking me up guys

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Lightning Guy

The British plans to turn the invasion beaches into flaming wrecks would have been murderously effective as well. IMO, the Wermacht was far superior to the British Army in 1940. The Royal Navy was far superior to the Kriegsmarine. And the RAF had (at worst) fought the Luftwaffe to a stand still. Personally, I think the Germans would might have had some success had they landed a sizeable force on the English shores. That being said, I think there is little chance of the Germans suppyling that force considering the bulk of the RAF and RN would be doing everything they could to deny that. And in the event the Germans managed to take England, they would have been left far to weak to fend off any othe opponent.

I pretty much agree with what you are saying but at I also agree with RG_Lunatic that it would have been very difficult to get the troops required to England (and with the plan they had using barges more then likely impossible) and had they been able to do so, the almost impossible task of logistics and resupply. I also think though had Germany launched Sealoewe und succeded that Stalin would have siezed the opportunity and invaded Germany and there would have been no chance of Germany fighting off the Russians then.

[lesofprimus]

Is anyone forgetting the paratroops that could have been dropped in prior to invasion??? Its not like the coast of England was heavily defended.....

Drop the paras in behind lines at key communications and control centers and effectivly cut Englands coastal heart.... Distract Britians attention from a seaborne attack....

It could happen.... ANother big what if...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very good point, but that still does not solve the logistical problem.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

And you've obviously never watched Dad's Army...........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

whose army?

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Is anyone forgetting the paratroops that could have been dropped in prior to invasion??? Its not like the coast of England was heavily defended.....

Drop the paras in behind lines at key communications and control centers and effectively cut England's coastal heart.... Distract Britain's attention from a seaborne attack....

It could happen.... Another big what if...

Germany didn't have nearly enough paratroopers, nor enough planes to deliver them. And they would have been facing:

2 Territorial Divisions
1 Brigade from India
1 Brigade from new Zealand
1 Armoured Division
1 Canadian Division
1 Army Tank Brigade

The British had the forces above all within the immediate vicinity of the invasion region. That's almost 5 divisions not counting militia and reservists. They had more in other parts of Britain.

I think that qualifies as "heavily defended", don't you?

=S=

Lunatic

[plan_D]

Going on the lessons from Crete, where only 3 AA batteries guarded the whole island, you have to recognise the massive losses the Luftwaffe would have taken to their Ju-52s. The paratroopers on Crete suffered over 25% losses, some stats reaching 50%...imagine that against a well dug-in army...ready to defend every inch! The Fallschirmjager would have been slaughtered.

PLUS, the Germans had nothing to destroy the Matilda except the 88. So, they would have had to be one of the first things ashore or Matilda IIs would have been sweeping away any German armour. The 88 was the only thing that stopped the British on so many occassions in Africa.

And I doubt FDR would have sent troops, if Britain had suffered defeats, that's a waste of manpower and they would have never reached Britain in time anyway. But I'll let you keep to your fantasy that America is the saviours...

LG, you are correct that the British Army was tactically inferior on the divisional level. However British equipment was, on a whole, superior to German equipment and the British soldier was just as good a warrior as a German man.
Look at the campaign in North Africa in detail, Rommel on many occasions was extremely lucky to not be destroyed by British forces. On a few occasions he was encircled but British caution got the better of them. I don't think the Germans would have been able to take Britain because, unlike in Fall Gelb, Britain would be in overall command. There would be no joint command.

I think FDR would have sent troops immeadiately upon hearing a German invasion of Britain was imminent. FDR was commited to saving the British, and if he'd had to thow away re-election possibilities in 1944 he'd have done so. The USN could have had ships in place to support the RN almost immeadiately if the Germans had been staging for an invasion. It's not a savior fantasy, you can see FDR's intentions in his writings of the time.

88's? The German's had no way to deploy 88's until they captured a functioning port. You cannot send 88's ashore on barges and rafts!

=S=

Lunatic

[plan_D]

I know FDR was a great man, with a lot of sense. As with China, he saw Britain as a line of defence before Americas borders. It's not a case of getting the men ashore, it's a case of keeping them well supplied. Plus a raw recruit army against an experienced force would not stand much of a chance. The American forces had a lot of time to prepare for D-Day, they'd have had no time to prepare for the defence of Britain. Plus the amount of time to get them to Britain in the first place, in large numbers, would be too long. It's a fantasy.

I know. That's ANOTHER reason why the German invasion plan would fail, only their 88s would be capable of stopping British armour. But there would be no way of bringing it ashore. That was my point!

[Lightning Guy]

Another thing with the paratroops, if a sea-borne invasion without air-superiority is full-hearty, an air-borne invasion without it is suicide. The Ju-52 was a fine transport, but, like most transports, it was hardly suited to an actuall air battle. And then how would you supply them?

[lesofprimus]

U would have to establish air superiority first.... This plan is contingent upon winning the BoB in the air, with no change to civilian targets.....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes there would have been no way for the Germans to even launch Seeloewe unless they had won the BoB. Without air supremecy it deffinatly would have failed.

Originally Posted by plan_D

I know FDR was a great man, with a lot of sense. As with China, he saw Britain as a line of defence before Americas borders. It's not a case of getting the men ashore, it's a case of keeping them well supplied. Plus a raw recruit army against an experienced force would not stand much of a chance. The American forces had a lot of time to prepare for D-Day, they'd have had no time to prepare for the defence of Britain. Plus the amount of time to get them to Britain in the first place, in large numbers, would be too long. It's a fantasy.

I know. That's ANOTHER reason why the German invasion plan would fail, only their 88s would be capable of stopping British armour. But there would be no way of bringing it ashore. That was my point!

Troops on British soil was not even necessary. FDR had the US Navy at his command. That was: 15 battleships, 6 aircraft carriers, 37 cruisers, 185 destroyers, 64 submarines, 19 PT boats, and 36 mine warfare ships.

The British had moved into Iceland in 1940 after the fall of Denmark, to prevent the German's from taking it. All they had to do was hand this over to the USA (which they did anyway in 1941) and FDR could have stationed several warships at this base, just 1000 miles north-northwest of Dover, and then US ships would have patrolled to the south of that point, putting them within easy striking distance of any German invasion. Just their presence would have been enough to prevent Hitler from invading, the USA would not even have had to officially enter the war.

And, as you know, I agree - the German's had no way to deploy any heavy equipment of any kind until after they secured an operation port. Since the British would surely have destroyed such a port before leaving it, and probably mined the waters near it, and the RN could shell it at night rather easily, it would have taken a long time for the Germans to establish an operational port.

=S=

Lunatic

[Udet]

Plan_D:

Thank you very much for showing who the real dazzed lost individual is.


The Germans were defeated at the Battle of Arras? No kidding!
It is funny you mention a local setback suffered by the Germans to attempt proving I have no clue on the battlefield facts!!

What was the benefit of the so called British "victory" at the Battle of Arras, when the bulk of the BEF arrived to England in shock and in trousers, escaping simply because Hitler allowed them to do so?

You can have your lollypop when you ve beaten nearly to death, with both your eyes deeply bruised and badly swollen lips.

Very funny Plan_D!!!!

Are you trying to suggest the British/Greek garrison at Crete did not have superior firepower to combat the German fallschirmjager?
Well mister, that is your very own problem.

Furthermore, no one ever said the German paratroopers did not have very high casualty rates; still those who touched the ground and unloaded their weapons were better lead, smarter and ferocious enough to bring the British and their allies down on their knees.

The German paratroopers had a very high casualty rate "even when the Luftwaffe had air superiority"? What does that have to do with anything at all?

The allied soldiers shot many paratroopers while they were hanging in their parachutes and several Ju52s were hit by antiaircraft fire while being loaded with the troopers.

So there is no connection AT ALL, between the high casualty rate of the German paratroopers in Crete and the air superioriy of the Luftwaffe in the area.

Since you believe you are very good at statisctics, can you tell the losses of the Royal Navy during Crete? How many cruisers and destroyers were destroyed by the Luftwaffe, plus those with several degrees of damage?

You trying to suggest Crete was only a minor issue for the British in terms of casualties?

Malta never fell? What about that?
Did the Germans ever try to seize it? They just ordered the Luftwaffe to bomb it, and during such time, the island experienced a very black period.

The German army had numerical superiority over the British everywhere they clashed??? This deserves a monument Plan-D. So you are suggesting during Fall Gelb the Germans outnumbered the allies?

As I said before, just like the British enjoyed the benefits of the very short range od the Bf109 during the Battle of Britain, the Germans enjoyed the benefits of each battlefield were they clashed with the British. The rule also applies for Germany.

The arguments you displayed make no point in taking substance to my comments and are only explanations to justify the British defeats.

I did say Seelowe was not launched because Hitler was not interested in doing so; if you read well, I also said, Seelowe, if launched, might well have failed.

Hitler´s fundamental interest was placed EAST, and would not waste valuable men in such a venture.