Peace protesting must be stopped!

Erich · 07-05-2005, 08:08 PM

do you remember a small little "gift zwerg" who fought during the 1967 war of liberation ~ Jerusalem and then became president of the PLO although he was not palestinian but came from Saudia Arabia ? this little imp started blowing up jets in the 1970's which I remember all too well, and yet he becomes in his eyes a world leader. the crumb was a terrorist pure and through. And yet even when he was on his death bed supposedly trying to get freedom for the poor wretched folk his wife was making sure all the funds poured into his bank was resting quitely in Zurich. So much for caring for "his" people.

sorry I am getting rilled up. I've seen first hand what these morons can do with plastics and concrete/mortar

plan_D · 07-05-2005, 08:13 PM

I understand that but I cannot find sympathy for all of Israel. I think it's strictly from a government point of view with me. Both Israel and Palestine have been drawn into the conflict, it's both their own doing. As I say, I understand both sides of the story.

The reason people feel so strongly about it is because it's happening today. Terrorists have existed throughout history, terror is a strong weapon. There is always the question of what is the difference between a "Freedom Fighter" and a "Terrorist" - in my opinion there's only two things - Fighting on home soil and his views. If a Palestinian drove his car into an Israeli roadblock and blew it up, killing the soldiers...and he was all about freeing his nation...I wouldn't condemn him nor would I praise him because it is a war and it's unfortunate on all sides that there is extremist Muslims that see that fight as an excuse to kill Westerners.

And of course, if you fly your flag as an enemy solider, you can't be a terrorist.

lesofprimus · 07-05-2005, 08:14 PM

Im with u 100% Erich...

I just wish Arafat was in a SEVERE amount of pain when he died, but drugs took care of that.....

Anyone guess who poisoned him?

plan_D · 07-05-2005, 08:16 PM

I know you feel strongly about it, Erich and any others who have encountered it. That's why I don't condemn the people who do fight for real beliefs, like freedom. I don't count religion because I dispise them all.

But let's take this further afield, what's the difference between a Palestinian fighting for freedom and Nelson Mandela? Nelson Mandela is praised as a brave and righteous World Leader...but in the words of the U.S state department take on terrorists...he was a terrorist.

lesofprimus · 07-05-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

a Palestinian fighting for freedom

A chicken shiit who walks into a crowded pizza shop and blows himself up aint fighting for freedom.... Just another brainwashed moron... Who's he fighting??? All those armed civilians?

Murdering innocent civilians is not fighting a war..... ITS MURDER....

Period...

Hand out flyers.... Hold a rally.... A candlelight vigil.... How about a televised WORLD FREEDOM PARTY???

It would be one thing if they are blowing up Israeli soldiers... Targeting Israeli Military targets...... I could probably agree that they are fighting for freedom...

BUT TO BLOW UP 5 YEAR OLD KIDS AND MOTHERS WHO ARE SUCKLING BABIES IS TERRORISM....

I dont know enough about Mandela to enter that discussion..... But if he qualifies like u said, then I agree with u that he is or used to be one......

plan_D · 07-05-2005, 08:41 PM

I'm not saying those blowing up civilians are worth anything. Don't get me wrong, those that do that are terrorists. That's why they get blown to pieces but do keep in mind that Israel isn't whiter than white either. They blow up Palestinian households and bulldoze houses. In my mind, they're both as bad as each other - that is why I don't take sides.

The only problem I have is the unhealthy fixation the world has with that conflict.

FLYBOYJ · 07-05-2005, 09:11 PM

What's always bothered me is it seems the Palestinian problem really "exploded" when their militias could no longer affix themselves with a standing army continually fighting Israel. Sure, you had all the peace agreements with Arafat, but I think we all know he was full of it! Since 56' Israel been kicking some major ass and we could go into the specifics of the 56, 67, 72 and 84 conflicts, but bottom line, those who confronted Israel on the battle field suffered sadly. Now before you say Israel has US support and some of the best weapons in the world, look at all the Soviet support given to the whole region in the 60s and 70s and still, Israel waxed every ones ass time and time again. No - to me the terrorist option is used because the radical Muslim world set on destroying Israel knows it isn't going to happen with a standing army - they have to resort to "scum of the earth terrorist tactics" because they could never organize a superior standing army to defeat Israel conventionally! Personally I think they're cowards, stupid and couldn't beat their way out of a paper bag!

lesofprimus · 07-05-2005, 09:43 PM

Amen 2X..........

plan_D · 07-05-2005, 09:44 PM

I hardly consider second-hand Soviet equipment on par with first-hand U.S equipment. The Arabs are not good at fighting a conventional war, no. In fact, I can't think of anyone worse but Israel only learnt it's lessons from the U.S and Europe (mainly the U.S).

They didn't immigrate and suddenly know how to fight a war. There's a few reasons the U.S support Israel, especially since 1967, but one is because of increased Soviet influence in the Arab worlds. If you notice though, everytime the U.S and Soviet Union started delivering weapons to either side in the conflict - the U.S side always won because the U.S gave not only weapons, but training too. I'm not just talking Arab-Israeli conflict there, either. India vs. Pakistan, Afghanistan vs. Soviet Union ect.

FLYBOYJ · 07-05-2005, 10:09 PM

We'll differ there D. The Arabs (Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya) didn't have second hand Soviet equipment, they had the best the commie world could supply. Probably the only time Israel was threatened was during the Egyptian SAM onslaught during the 72 war where 1/3 of the IAF was almost wiped out. Egyptian, Syrian and Libyan pilots have been trained by the Soviets and a few Soviet pilots even flew during the 72' war (and also got shot down). The fact that the Arabs are not good fighters doesn't justify using terrorism as a weapon. Egypt, Jordan and now it seems Libya have came to their senses. Let Israel be! The money the Islamic Arab world has spent fighting Israel and the Western world could of been given to all the Palestinians, if divided evenly each one would of been a multi-millionaire! They could sit in cafes on the West Bank and Gaza, drink espresso and not do anything all day!

lesofprimus · 07-05-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

The money the Islamic Arab world has spent fighting Israel and the Western world could of been given to all the Palestinians, if divided evenly each one would of been a multi-millionaire! They could sit in cafes on the West Bank and Gaza, drink espresso and not do anything all day!

And with that quote FBJ has done what Carter and Clinton could never have hoped to achieve...... A solution to the Mid-East Crisis.....

FLYBOYJ · 07-05-2005, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Quote:

The money the Islamic Arab world has spent fighting Israel and the Western world could of been given to all the Palestinians, if divided evenly each one would of been a multi-millionaire! They could sit in cafes on the West Bank and Gaza, drink espresso and not do anything all day!

And with that quote FBJ has done what Carter and Clinton could never have hoped to achieve...... A solution to the Mid-East Crisis.....

Now does that mean I'm Carter or Clinton? If I'm Clinton I have better taste in interns

plan_D · 07-05-2005, 11:16 PM

Palestine has U.N arms embargos on it - it couldn't fight convetionally, even if it wanted to. Personally, I like neither Arabia or Israel. In my perfect world, they'd both slog it out into obilivion...but then, we can't have my perfect world.

There is a massive history to Palestine though and, I would like to point out that the Bible is the biggest load of lies in the history of...well...history. There's no record of a unified Hebrew Kingdom in neither the Eygptian or Mesopotamian histories.

The difference of opinion between you three and I is quite easily understandable. Being that the U.S has a strong connection and Europeans have a strong distaste to Israel. I'm glad it hasn't turned into a slanging match...that's why I normally don't talk about religion or politics...they're both how wars start!

Erich · 07-05-2005, 11:43 PM

look we have been through this before without knocking each other with a 2x4 considering the bible. you have your thoughts which you have made very public and so have I so guess we need to look at present and not was deemed for Israel as a nation. As I said if you look back into Roman history which was written by the jew josephesus in a huge volumes Palestina was the entire are of israel and was inclduing all peoples enmasse both the Jews and the non jews which weree an ammalgation of tribal dweller, the phillistines included who had poached themselves on the coastline along Gaza.

ok history lesson over. From what I have seen first hand and all that is leading up to the crack getting larger by each week in the mideast, Israel is where it is all going to happen. nations will rise against her, Muslim as well as non.; thinking that the Soviet Union is not out of the picture yet. crap is going to hit the fan and already was when i was there in 1980. As I said gift zwerg had a multi-million dollar bank acct before his death and it was to deal out vicious blows to the Israeli's in any way shape and form. he could buy the best hand held weapons is a fact and considering all the B.S. that comes out of the U.N.'s mouth they have done nothing to quell the problems there. Plan it was the Israeli Secret service that trained the west Germans Secret service after the war and many others, in fact on a personal note I will tell you that have helped us greatly in the aid for determining nest of terrorism throughout the world. the only thing in our favour is money, manpower, and the high technolgy.

time for a Bier

plan_D · 07-06-2005, 12:10 AM

There is no doubt that a Hebrew existance was present in Palestine. The doubt is with the unified Kingdom which the Bible claims existed. Isreali discoveries inside their current homeland have proven that there was a prosperous Hebrew Kingdom in the North of the region until 8th Century B.C - and then another Kingdom of more relgious taking 150 years later in the South of the region.

The story of the enslaved Hebrews that built the temples does not exist in Eygptian records either. In fact, the only record of the Hebrews the Eygptians have is of a starving tribe that the Eygptians gave land to cultivate in the North of their Empire.

There's no ancient record of Hebrew tribes wandering the Sinai desert. Jericho was nothing what the Bible describes, it was unwalled and uninhabitated. Yet, the bible claims a mighty battle and complete conquest of the city in the Book of Joshua. How can you conquer a city that doesn't exist?

King Soloman didn't exist nor did Moses. And there's no proof of the mass exodus from Eygpt. King David, as claimed in the bible, was hardly a king...there's no records of him anywhere but in the bible. There is no doubt that Hebrew tribes existed in the region but there was no Hebrew Kingdom that was large enough to leave a legacy.

They may well have been in larger numbers during Roman times but before hand, there was little of them anywhere.

Up to more modern times, 19th Century, the only reason the Isreal exists is because a few number of Jews were upset that they lacked any kind of national identity beyond their own European nation. It all started with the politcal Zionist movements in Poland and Russia where Jews were most harshly treated. In the first Zionist Congress only 200 people were present!

In later 19th Century, the Jews were allowed freedoms and began migrating. From Russia between 1881 and 1914 - 2.5 million Jews emigrated, only 30,000 went to Palestine. 2 million went to the U.S and the rest spread through West Europe.

Palestine wasn't even an option for most Jews, as it was still under Ottoman Empire control. They much prefered Europe and America, where they had rights. It was only the hardline political Zionists that went to Palestine, and good thing for them too because anymore and they'd have starved. Just to show, the Jewish population in the Ottoman Empire only increased by 60,000 between 1889 - 1914. And in 1920 the Palestine population of Jews, was 60,000 compared to the Arab population of the same area at 585,000!

That's when many Western Jews started moving to Palestine. At the distaste of the Jews already settled. The original immigrants worked the land and helped with the nations economy, but the new ones didn't want to work or didn't have the skills to work. Most of them were Mizrahim from North Africa and Mid-East.
They were starting to out-number the indigienous population of Arabs - and they couldn't provide any form of work force due to a lack of skill. It was just conquering by immigration.

And they expected the Arabs to lay down and accept it? They knew what they were getting themselves into. That's why I don't sympathise with them.

Now, the next World War is probably going to be sucked into the Middle East. I don't care, I'd be happy in fact that FOR ONCE it wouldn't be fought on European soil. And both Israel and Mid-East can slog it out to the death...it's something I'm cheering for.