Saving Private Ryan - Tank Busters

KraziKanuK · 05-15-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

Perhaps they were actually A-36's, the ground attack version of the P-51?

The A-36s were in the MTO with the 27th and 86th FBG. Also with the 311th FBG in India.

A-36s flew 23,373 combat sorties, dropping some 8000t of bombs, shooting down 84 EAs for the loss of 177 a/c to enemy action. That is 132 sorties per loss. Who says the P-51 was susceptable to ground fire?

It is wishful thinking if one thinks a 20mm wil do damage to the bottom of a Tiger/Panther with at least 25mm of armour to penetrate.

DAVIDICUS · 05-15-2005, 12:29 PM

In the movie, it was clearly an American P-51D.

lesofprimus · 05-15-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Who says the P-51 was susceptable to ground fire?

Me........

GermansRGeniuses · 05-15-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

Perhaps they were actually A-36's, the ground attack version of the P-51?

No, they had the bubble canopy, not the "cage"/Malcolm hood.

lesofprimus · 05-15-2005, 12:52 PM

GrG, ur avatar is Kaputz.....

plan_D · 05-15-2005, 01:27 PM

You're kidding me, KK. The under-armour of a Tiger or Panther would fall easily to the bombardment of several 20 mm rounds. This isn't one round we're talking about, this is a mass of high velocity 20 mm rounds.

The A-10 only carries a 30mm cannon under it's nose but it makes up for it with the mass amount of lead those 8 barrels can throw out in a short space of time.

The amount of 20mm rounds makes up for their lack of penertration. The rpm wasn't enough to penertrate the top armour of the Tiger or Panther but the weak underside would be punched through in no time.

Remember, armour gets weaker with each hit! It's like standing on an undamaged can then tapping it, what could hold you before crumples away because the structure has been weakened.

DAVIDICUS · 05-15-2005, 01:53 PM

I agree with KK.

lesofprimus · 05-15-2005, 01:58 PM

Unfortunatly, ue agreeing with the wrong guy... There are gun camera footages showing this very thing happening... U can see the ricochettes bouncing off and around the tank, and then boom!!!!

Rounds penetrated the soft under armor and combusted the rounds stored inside..... Not a very nice way to go.........

There are several other members here in good standing who will verify these claims, including PlanD...

Soren · 05-15-2005, 02:13 PM

Eeerrr, what are we talking about here ?

How would rounds from an aircraft 'directly' hit the underside of a tank ?

If the tank is standing on a brick or cement road, the rounds 'could' bounce off the road and up onto the tanks underbelly. But by striking the road the rounds loose well over 60-70% of their energy, making it impossible for them to penetrate the underbelly, even if there are multiple hits.

The Gun-cam footage of tanks exploding in a shower of sparks are not "Tigers" being pounded, but smaller and thinner armored Panzers who are being hit directly on their weak top armor by high-power 20mm AP rounds.

plan_D · 05-15-2005, 02:20 PM

It is well known throughout the armoured forces from World War 2 and the Allied air forces that rounds could be bounced up underneath the enemy tank.

I will admit that .50 cal had no chance of destroying a Tiger, even from underneath. A barrage of 20mm however would, a constant battering received to a small area would eventually collapse the armour because with each hit the armour would weaken, then eventually it would cave in.

That was often how tanks were destroyed by anything, very rarely were German tanks destroyed in one hit by anything. It was the constant battering from enemy shells that eventually collapsed the armour.

lesofprimus · 05-15-2005, 02:28 PM

Quote:

I will admit that .50 cal had no chance of destroying a Tiger, even from underneath. A barrage of 20mm however would

Yup.......

Maestro · 05-15-2005, 02:31 PM

I'm not an expert in tanks, but I agree with Plan_D. What he said sounds logical.

lesofprimus · 05-15-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

The Gun-cam footage of tanks exploding in a shower of sparks are not "Tigers" being pounded, but smaller and thinner armored Panzers who are being hit directly on their weak top armor by high-power 20mm AP rounds.

Two completely different footages......... I know the difference between 20mm and .50 cal impacts on armor, and can readily tell the difference between a panzer and a tiger.... But pointing it out was the correct thing to do....

Soren · 05-15-2005, 02:47 PM

Plan_D a 20mm Hispano AP shell could accounting for the extra momentum of the plane, penetrate the Tigers top-armor with a direct hit, but never the bellly ! As for reaching the belly of the tank, the projectile would have to hit hard pavement first wich takes off almost all the energy of the pojectile, reducing its penetrative effectiveness to that of a normal .30 cal AP round. And I think we can agree that nomatter how many .30 cal rounds you fire at a Tiger, it won't penetrate !

Fact is the guns from an aircraft can't hit the belly of a tank 'directly', wich is what is needed if you ever want to penetrate 25mm of armor with a 20mm gun.

plan_D · 05-15-2005, 02:51 PM

I'm not saying this happened often, Soren. The AP 20mm shell could never be brought down to the effectiveness of a .30 cal. The sheer weight alone makes it a more lethal.

It would take a barrage of 20s to collapse the underbelly of a Tiger. That is the only way it would, a constant barrage of heavy lumps of lead shattering against the same small spot. The steel is weakened and, eventually it collapses.

I imagine a few passes would need to be made but it was done.