Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

Soren · 06-11-2005, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I agree with Lanc here it is technically not a Fw-190. It is an evolution of it but it is not a Butcher Bird.

Its a Focke Wulf aircraft, and of the same basic design as the 190D. I don't see why we can't count it in aswell....

I basically see the Ta-152 as a Fw-190 just with a longer wing-span, as that's basically what it was...

However I do see that it isn't a designated "190", so there you have a point as it is a "190 vs Spit" thread.

So it depends are we going to rely on written designations as a criteria, or the technical aspect ?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-11-2005, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Spitfire Mk.XIV would be able to cope with any Fw-190A and it would come down to pilot skill against the D-9. To compare the Spitfire XIV against the Ta-152 is a little unfair as it did see service but the Spitfire XVIII was coming into service by the end of the war. XVIII against Ta152 would be better.

I really dont see any Spitfire hanging with a Ta-152. Dont take me wrong the Spitfire XVIII would have been great just like the other Spitfires but I think the Ta-152 was the cream of the crop for the time. The 152 had more room then the Spitfire to evolve. And as for the XIV agains the a 190A, you can not imply that the Spitfire would easily do away with it. The 190A was still a very formidable aircraft up until wars end and could do away with a XIV just as well. It too would have been pilot skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Its a Focke Wulf aircraft, and of the same basic design as the 190D. I don't see why we can't count it in aswell....

I basically see the Ta-152 as a Fw-190 just with a longer wing-span, as that's basically what it was...

However I do see that it isn't a designated "190", so there you have a point as it is a "190 vs Spit" thread.

So it depends are we going to rely on written designations as a criteria, or the technical aspect ?

I completey agree with your point but I just agree with Lanc that it should stick to pure 190's. Now a 152 against lets say Spit XIV and higher may be an interesting thread to start up also.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-11-2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiron

"It is an evolution of it but it is not a Butcher Bird."

How did Fw-190 got its nickname as infamous Butcher Bird?

How about Spit? Did German had name for Spit.?

I am not really sure but here is what I have read on some websites and in some books. Personally I think the name fits, she was a powerful and deadly aircraft.

Quote:

The "FW-190-V1" (V1 meaning "Versuchs 1 / Prototype 1") flew from the Bremen airport on 1 June 1939 with test pilot Hans Sander at the controls. Tank himself, a skilled pilot and definitely a "hands-on" engineer, performed some of the test flights. He gave the machine the name "Wuerger (Butcher Bird / Shrike)".
http://www.vectorsite.net/avfw190.html

the lancaster kicks ass · 06-11-2005, 02:15 PM

i'd put the butcher bird name down to it's heavy armourment, that's just my thought.........

and the Ta-152 IS NOT a Fw-190, as the designations are different, we do not count the seafire in this do we?? the seafire was essentially a spitfire, however it's a different plane because of slight differences and different designation.............

cheddar cheese · 06-11-2005, 02:40 PM

I think th Ta-152 is more closely related to the 190D than the 190D is to the 190A. I think it could be included...

the lancaster kicks ass · 06-11-2005, 03:02 PM

but the fact that it is not designated a Fw-190 means that it's not a -190.......

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-11-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

I think th Ta-152 is more closely related to the 190D than the 190D is to the 190A. I think it could be included...

This I agree with. The A had a radial and the Dora and the 152 had inline engines. But I do somewhat agree with Lanc in the fact that it really isn't a 190.

plan_D · 06-11-2005, 09:34 PM

The Spitfire XIV was superior to the Fw-190A in almost every aspect. It would be pilot skill on the Germans part if he could survive.

lesofprimus · 06-11-2005, 10:17 PM

The Ta-152 was developed from the Fw-190C and the abandoned Ta-153 proposal... A long nose derivative of the Dora, powered with the Jumo 213E-1...

The Ta part of the Ta-152 was changed from the Fw to honor Kurt Tank, the designer of the -190... The beginnings of the Ta-152 design are tracked back to the Fw-190Ra-2 and Ra-3, which were based on the Fw-190D abd the Jumo 213 engine... The second phase was the Fw-190Ra-4D...

Those first 2 aircraft were renamed the Ta-152B and the Ta-152H... The Ra-4D was renamed the Ta-153...

I regard the Ta-152 as the next generation of the Dora and as such, part of the -190 family....

Glider · 06-12-2005, 02:50 AM

I am with Lesof on this if it helps.

cheddar cheese · 06-12-2005, 06:47 AM

Good info les...I agree...

wmaxt · 06-12-2005, 05:25 PM

It's an interesting issue. I feel the fw-190/Ta152 the same way I look at the P-47D/M/N and the P-51 D/H the basic design is exactly the same though many parts were changed, in the case of the P-51H every piece was examined and modified. The P-47s had most of the aircrafts components examined and completly new wing designs.

They are still part of the P-47, P-51 or fw-190 aircraft evolution. The change from fw to Ta was to honor/recognise Kurt Tank more than to designate a new aircraft which it really isn't. I've also read this somewhere but I can't remember where or when.

wmaxt

plan_D · 06-13-2005, 01:02 AM

If we're including the Ta-152 in the equation then, yes, by the end the Fw-190 series was superior. The Spitfire had lived it's life during the war and Britain was starting to give it all up for the jet aircraft.

The Spitfire was older than the Fw-190, it served a longer military career in more air forces. Technically the Fw-190A was superior to the Spitfire V, equal to the IX, inferior to the XIV. The Fw-190D was superior to the V, IX and equal to the XIV. The Ta-152 was superior to the V, IX and XIV.

The Spitfire XVIII was the definative war-time Spitfire. It was a strengthened airframe and had an increase in fuel load. The Ta-152 would be superior to the Spitfire XIV and XVIII but by no means would it be an easy fight.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2005, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Spitfire was older than the Fw-190, it served a longer military career in more air forces. Technically the Fw-190A was superior to the Spitfire V, equal to the IX, inferior to the XIV. The Fw-190D was superior to the V, IX and equal to the XIV. The Ta-152 was superior to the V, IX and XIV.

I agree with you for the most part however I still would completely chock it up to pilot skill in a Fw-190A and Spit XIV duel. The Fw-190A was still a very capable and deadly aircraft.

plan_D · 06-13-2005, 11:20 PM

The Spitfire XIV was superior to the Fw-190A.

Specifications Fw 190A-8:
Engine: One 2,100-hp BMW 801D-2 radial piston engine
Weight: Empty 6,989 lbs., Max Takeoff 10,802 lbs.
Wing Span: 34ft. 5.5in.
Length: 29ft. 1.5in.
Height: 13ft. 0in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 408 mph
Ceiling: 37,400 ft.
Range: 500 miles
Armament:
Two 7.92-mm (0.31-inch) machine guns in nose.
Up to four 20-mm MG 151 guns in wings.

Mk XIV:
Dimensions:
Wing span: 36 ft 10 in (11.23 m)
Length: 32 ft 8 in (9.95 m)
Height: 12 ft 8 in (3.85 m)
Weights: Empty: 6,600 lb. (2,993 kg) Loaded: 8,500 lb (3,855 kg)
Performance:Maximum Speed: 448 mph (720 km/h) @ 26,000 ft (7,924m)
Service Ceiling: 44,500 ft. (13,563 m)
Range: 850 miles (1,367 km)
Powerplant Mk XIV:
Rolls Royce Griffon 65, 2,050 hp,
(1,528 kw), Vee 12 cylinder, Liquid-cooled.
Armament Mk XIV:
Two Hispano Mk.II 20 mm cannon and four Browning .303 calibre machine guns, external bomb load of
1,000 lb (454 kg); or Two Hispano Mk.II 20 mm cannon and two Browning .50 cal heavy machine guns.

Just because the Spitfire XIV was better, which it was, doesn't mean the Fw-190A wasn't deadly.