What If......

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe so too, there were a lot of people that saw Stalin as the ruthless tyrant that he was. Something that I find amazing is how Stalin was really no better then Hitler. He oppressed millions of people and killed millions also. That shows that the Victors always write the History books and that no one judges the side that wins.

[plan_D]

Yeah, all the Allied war crimes have gone unpunished. I always like reading books written from a German point of view, it at least gives them a chance to have their say.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not to say that the German war crimes were not uncommen but there were crimes committed on both sides. Not as many as the Germans committed. I just hate it how innocent lives are wasted. My wife always says that the best place to be in a war is in the military because atleast you are trained for it and not subjected to the horrors as an innocent bystander.

[Udet]

Pland D just made a very strong point.

While there is no doubt the massive human resources available for the USSR played a vital role on soviet victory, I also agree, from what I have read so far, as well from the accounts of veterans, that the USSR, by the time of the German surrendering, was an exahusted and bled to death nation.

That their human resources were massive has never implied they were endless; no nation on earth, no matter how big it might be and how large its population is, can take what the USSR took during WWII without paying a very high cost.

During Operation Bagration (June 1944), the massive summer soviet offensive which pushed the Germans out of the USSR for good, there were countless reports from the frontline troops, informing on how bizarre the red army was becoming.

Along with the large numers of T-34s, self propelled artillerie regiments and massive artillery barrages, the soviets were sending big numbers of children, women, elder and impaired people; lots of them were hardly armed and countless were barefoot!!

I recall reading on several books, General Erhards Raus (commanding a Panzer Korps -forgot the number-) during the summer of 1944, reported that among the soviet prisoners captured were women who did their laundry only a few weeks ago in Minsk.

This seriously contradicts the commonly accepted version of a "totally new, fresh, lavishly equipped Red Army, with renewed tactis to destroy the Wehrmacht" emerging from the USSR during 1944.


History has managed to depict the soviet union recovered from the utterly brutal and nightmarish defeats of 1941/1942, just like if coming back from a series of "minor" setbacks and mishaps.

Indeed, after WWII the USSR was a world power. But the price and the consequences of WWII on its people have hardly been assessed so far.

This, alongside, with other elements, comprises the overall notion on how helpless the USSR would have been without foreign/allied help.

[Lightning Guy]

You are all overlooking one very important thing. The atomic bomb. America had it. The Soviet Union didn't. Granted this is an atrocious senario, but had the war progressed it most likely would have been used (especially since the Soviets had no deterent force in 1945).

[plan_D]

America really didn't need to use it on the Soviet Union. The Germans had already brought them to their knees, the Western Allies just needed to give them one good kick in the head and it'd all be over.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I will agree with you on that then, if the Soviets were already at there knees they would have not been able to fight much longer if the allies had gone into the USSR. Who knows if this had happened what would the world be like today. There would not have been a Cold War. If there had not been a Cold War what would have happened to the Axis countries Germand and Japan. How much would the allies have helped to rebuild them?

[Lightning Guy]

Hard to say. Japan wasn't expected to help very much through the Cold War. Their new constitution limited the military to a purely self defense force and yet America contributed greatly to rebuilding Japan. The process had even started well before the Cold War got into high gear. I imagine the situation in Germany would have been some what similar.

And I wasn't saying that the atomic weapons would have been needed but they were there and represented a dramatic shift in balace of power towards America and her allies.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good points, I just wonder if they would have placed so much emphasis on rebuilding them especially Germany. It is something that has always intrigued me.

[GermansRGeniuses]

This worked and materialised?




Projekt 'Schwimmweste' - Schiessen mit der A4 von See aus

Direktor Lafferenz von der Deutschen Arbeitsfront hatte durch praktische Versuche nachgewiesen, dass ein U-Boot bis zu drei größte tauchfähige Schwimmkörper schleppen konnte. Mit U 1063 wurde der Unterwasserschlepp erprobt und zeigte nur minimale Probleme. Dadurch entstand die Frage, ob es möglich sei, in diesen Schwimmkörpern A 4-Raketen mitzuführen. Der Gedanke war, diese Raketen aus den Tauchbehältern zu starten. So entstand 1943 ein weiteres Projekt. Die Transport- und Verschussbehälter sollten eine Länge von 37 m und einen Durchmesser von 5,5 m haben. Bei der Größe sprach man von der enormen Wasserverdrängung von 500 Tonnen. Nach Erreichen des Zieles wäre das Heck geflutet worden und der Schwimmkörper hätte senkrecht gestanden und ca. 5 Meter aus dem Wasser geragt. Auf einer kreiselstabilisierten Plattform wäre das A 4 betankt und überprüft worden. Die Stromversorgung sollte durch das U-Boot erfolgen. Kurz vor dem Start hätte die Bedienermannschaft den Behälter verlassen. Das Startsignal wäre vom U-Boot aus gegeben worden. Auf dem Startweg innerhalb des Schwimmkörpers beabsichtigte man das A 4 in Schienen zu führen und den Gasstrahl über eine Schurre um l80° umzulenken, so dass er nach oben austreten konnte. Für die Fahrt über den Atlantik berechnete man bei 12 Seemeilen Geschwindigkeit zum geplanten Ziel (USA) etwa 30 Tage. Vorgesehen waren die sog. Elektro-U-Boote vom Typ XXI. Die Antriebstoffe wie flüssiger Sauerstoff und Äthylalkohol hätte man in den Schwimmkörpern neben der Rakete mitgeführt. Der Verlust an flüssigem Sauerstoff währen der Anfahrt wäre durch entsprechend große Tankbehälter auszugleichen gewesen. Das Projekt sollte in Verbindung mit der Stettiner Vulcanwerft erarbeitet werden. Noch am 9. Dezember 1944 fand bei der Waffen-Prüfabteilung 10 (Raketen) des Heereswaffenamtes eine Umfangreiche Besprechung statt. Bis Ende März 1945 sollten dann die Voruntersuchungen abgeschlossen sein. Im Februar 1945 wurde Peenemünde aber bereits geräumt. Auch die von der Werft begonnenen Muster konnten nicht mehr fertig gestellt werden.

[GermansRGeniuses]

Babel Fish Translation

In English:
Project 'Schwimmweste' - shooting with the A4 von See out Director Lafferenz of the German work front had proven by practical attempts that a submarine up to three could drag largest dipable flotation chambers. With U 1063 underwaterdrag tested and showed only minimum problems. From the question resulted whether it was possible to carry in these flotation chambers A 4-Raketen. The thought was to start these rockets from the dipping containers. Thus 1943 a further project developed. The transportation and firing container should have a length of 37 m and a diameter of 5,5 m. With the size one spoke of the enormous water displacement of 500 tons. After reaching the goal the tail would have been flooded and the flotation chambers would have perpendicularly confessed and approx.. 5 meters risen up out of the water. On a gyro-stabilized platform A 4 would have been refuelled and examined. The current supply should take place via the submarine. Briefly before the start the operator crew would have left the container. The starting signal would have been given from the submarine. On the start distance within the flotation chamber one intended to lead A 4 in rails and to return the gas jet across a Schurre around l80°, so that he could withdraw upward. For the travel over the Atlantic one computed about 30 days with 12 nautical miles speed to the planned goal (the USA). Were intended sucked. Electrical submarines of the type XXI. One would have carried the drive materials like liquid oxygen and ethyl alcohol in the flotation chambers beside the rocket. The loss at liquid oxygen starts by according to large tank container lasts to be adjusted had. The project should be compiled in connection with the Stettiner Vulcanwerft. Still on 9 December 1944 an extensive discussion took place at the weapon test department 10 (rockets) of the office for army weapon. To at the end of March 1945 then the preliminary investigations should be final. In February 1945 Peenemuende was however already vacated. Also of did not throw samples begun could any longer be finished placed.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The theorie was correct however it never made it to operational status. If it had I dont think it would have caused anything more than fear in the United States. It is however the beginnings of the Submarine Ballistic Missile program and much of the work here started the US's.

[Lightning Guy]

And has continued to be perfected here in the US.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

however we have some of the finest balistic missile subs in the world...........

[Nonskimmer]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

however we have some of the finest balistic missile subs in the world...........

Well, I can vouch for the crews. RN submariners know their game, there's no question!