What makes an ace?

dead parrot · 07-19-2004, 01:24 PM

This is something I've been wondering about for a while now, but what do you all think is the key factor that turns a fighter pilot into an ace?

The vast majority of pilots seemed to have muddled through battles and got somewhere between 0 and 1 or maybe 2 kills, but a precious few acccount for a huge percentage of a fighter force's kills. What do these aces have in common?

One factor I have frequently come across is that aces already knew how to shoot (rifles etc) before becoming pilots. But I find this kind of strange, because I can't help thinking that shooting a rifle and lining up a plane for a shot are two completly different skill sets...

Anyways, what do you think?

Maestro · 07-19-2004, 09:53 PM

Hmmm... You're post remembered me a strange story I heard about a Canadian ace of WW II.

The guy (if I remember well) was from Trois-Rivières and loved duck hunting. When the war started, he went to England and enlisted in the RAF (RCAF didn't wanted him). This guy was so used (as a duck hunter) to listen carefully, that he could hear a enemy plane's engine before it came at sight. So he had the time to jump in a plane and warm-up the engine before Germans could straffle the airstrip.

The guy was so talented that, a couple of years later, Canada forced him back and gave him a high-ranking spot in the RCAF.

Is it a true story or only a legend, I'll never know.

Lightning Guy · 07-19-2004, 10:17 PM

There were several things which contributed to being an Ace. Good gunnery helped, but wasn't required (Dick Bong was an ace several times over before receiving ANY training in air-to-air gunnery). Good eye-sight was important as was aggressiveness. I think one of the keys was a knowledge of your aircraft and that of your enemies. The pilot who can use the strengths of his plane and avoid the strengths of his enemy is bound to have success.

plan_D · 07-19-2004, 11:20 PM

Or it could just be (in the USAAF) shooting three aircraft on the ground.

dead parrot · 07-20-2004, 05:40 AM

Dick Ira Bong--what a name...

But, seriously, he is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He was a farm boy who grew up hunting with guns. So, he was good shot with a rifle and therefore he was a good shot in a plane, even though he had no air-to-air gunnery training...

plan_D · 07-20-2004, 09:46 AM

It's the same principal, aim and shoot. On top of that, he probably was used to hitting moving targets. So he had a clue about firing in front of the target to bring the target into the bullet.

Lightning Guy · 07-20-2004, 12:40 PM

Bong was skilled in hunting but was never considered a good air-to-air marksmen. The majority of his kills were scored at dangerously close ranges where the chances of missing were virtually nil. After the war, he admitted that if he had received propery gunnery training before being deployed he could have doubled his score.

The destruction of aircraft on the ground was only counted in Europe. If you want to get on some one about their kill counts, get on the French or some of the Eastern European countries. They counted shared victories as whole kills and sometimes award multiple victories for dowing 1 plane (ie, 1 pilot might get credit for 2 kills because he shot down a twin-engined airplane).

plan_D · 07-20-2004, 12:43 PM

I'm not getting at it, I'm just stating a fact. Destroying 3 planes on the ground wasn't as easy as it sounds.

Lightning Guy · 07-20-2004, 10:03 PM

I don't think 3 planes on the ground was ever considered an ace. 3 on the ground plus 2 in the air might be.

plan_D · 07-21-2004, 01:59 AM

I saw it on a programme, and even a few Mustang pilots on it said so. I've got an interview with another Mustang pilot in a magazine who had 3 air kills, and he was an ace too. One was a Schwalbe, so I'll let him off.

The Germans weren't impressed if you were still in double figures.

the lancaster kicks ass · 07-21-2004, 12:26 PM

well that's more they had in the air late in the war......................

Lightning Guy · 07-21-2004, 12:45 PM

I haven't seen anybody counting 3 as an Ace unless they had additional ground kills to make it to five. The Germans really looked down on the 5 kill mark. You needed at least 10 for it to mean anything to Luftwaffe. And they had over 100 pilots with 100+ kills.

the lancaster kicks ass · 07-21-2004, 12:48 PM

yes but allot of them stayed on the ground, which is why i was carefull with my choise of words....................

Maestro · 07-21-2004, 02:09 PM

I have some statistics about WW II Aces. (I appologize for any mistake, I translated it from French.)

Luftwaffe:

Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, best pilot, 352 victories
Major Erich Rudorffer, 7th best pilot, 222 victories
Lieutenant-Colonel Dietrich Hrabak, 125 victories

USAAF:

Colonel Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, 28 victoires
Major Robert S. Johnson, 27 victories
Major John T. Godfrey, 16.33 victories

RAF:

Vice Air-Marshall J.E. "Johnnie" Johnson, best RAF pilot in Europe, 38 victories
Captain Alan C. Deere, 22.5 victories

Well, that's all I have...

dead parrot · 07-21-2004, 02:32 PM

Hmm, I wonder how many of those were good shots with rifles etc before they ever flew...? Maestro, do you know off-hand?

Just another example I have seen (from The Most Dangerous Enemy, so a lot of you guys know it, I reckon), is the British ace Robert Doe. He had grown up shooting a rifle a lot when he was a kid, and so in his first ever action managed to shoot down two Me110s, despite the fact that he was an uncomfortable pilot who never did well at all at the acrobatic stuff. He put his success down to being a good shot and having a simple evasive technique that worked for him.