Yo Basket! (and other Brits)

plan_D · 10-21-2007, 05:49 PM

Well, English peasants didn't clean their sh*t covered faces and march into battle behind some poncey (probably foreign) noblemen on horse to fight those blue faced red headed skirt wearers just so some wobbly gobbed arse face can give it back 300 years later.

'English' nobility has hailed from practically every part of freakin' Europe anyway; Henry VIII alone gives evidence to the fact that the nobility of England cummed down the throats of most of Europe - Anne of Kleves (hmmm...Kleve isn't in England) ; Catherine of Aragon (Wonder where that is?) ...England spent the last thousand years being kicked around and kicking around Europe; got pulled out of wars with France because some Hanoverian ponce couldn't bare the thought of losing his estate in Germany. And do we complain? do we buggery...half of us are too p*ssed to give a ****.

The Basket · 10-21-2007, 06:30 PM

And I never thought I could support Scottish nationalism!

mkloby · 10-21-2007, 06:59 PM

pd - You have some good arguments. Always love the gentle use of words that you are well known for. First - what is the exact meaning of "bollocks?" An F-bomb? S? Combination of the two?

National sovereignty is quite a dilemma. Hardly ever does one support the same side of the coin in all conflicts, and an individual's stances often make him appear a hypocrite. Sides are often drawn along personal biases and culture. One of the biggest problems with the concept of national sovereignty is the NATIONAL part. You can have a textbook definition of a nation, but that does little good if the people themselves do not see themselves as a separate and distinct identity. Also, the line must be drawn somewhere - which I feel was one of your points, although worded somewhat, err... differently. I've read some stuff before about Northumbrians wanting independence and such. However, it would appear as though the vast majority of those living there do not define themselves as a dinstinct nation compared to England as a whole. I could be wrong. That appears to be a different case from Scotland, and even more so Northern Ireland. If a referendum is held, and the majority votes to join Eire, then the UK already agreed to such a peaceful outcome. I doubt the UK would attempt to oppose the union by force - so your point of declaring war like in the times of yore is dead in a way.

All that said - It's easy to view another nation's internal relations as an outsider and CLAIM to be unbiased. I'm the first to admit i'm prejudiced as all hell, and support opposing sides of the ideology in different cases. If any part of the US wanted independence, I'd for sure be on the side of the Union.

plan_D · 10-21-2007, 07:12 PM

Bollocks are your nuts ! And in the terms I used it; "...like the Irish sh*t."

You are right, nationality is one of the most complicated things on this planet. The line being drawn is exactly my point; there's so many parts of Europe (and the World) that have been created by conquest or politics - without any ethnic study, or care for that matter.

The mid to late '30s when Germany was laying claim to several parts of Europe because of ethnic backgrounds, or previous holdings. The claim they made on the 'Polish Corridor' could be argued for and against on both counts. The claim was made on previous ownership, which was a valid claim - I suppose.
The Sudetenland claim was based on the ethnic Germans who lived there; yet again a valid claim. But (practically) all of Czechoslovakia on previous ownership could have been demanded by Poland, Germany and Austria.

Kaliningrad today is the old Konigsberg - Germany, really, could claim to own that. But it's almost 100% imported Russian. Who owns what, and where they come from is all a matter of debate - and personal bias. As, thankfully, mkloby, you have noticed between the colourful language there's a map of Europe for every era... but there needs to be a line.

If Scotland became independant, they would fail as a nation. That's not just some personal bias, it will happen. Let it happen.

And I am bias, if it were up to me the post-American independance should be re-gained. The American independance was the best thing to happen to the British Empire .

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-22-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

Kaliningrad today is the old Konigsberg - Germany, really, could claim to own that.

Yeap that is where my Grandmother is originally from. When it was actually still within German borders.

mkloby · 10-22-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Yeap that is where my Grandmother is originally from. When it was actually still within German borders.

Off topic - but that must be a very strange feeling when your childhood home is not only controlled by another state, but inhabited by a different people.

Aussie1001 · 10-22-2007, 09:34 PM

ease up Plan D jesus are you having hemoroids or something.....

plan_D · 10-23-2007, 06:00 AM

I'm reading about the history of Prussia at the moment; I'm up to the final part of the 18th Century at the moment. The book has six maps of Prussia through the ages at the beginning, it really opens your eyes to the changes that have happened.

And Prussia was abolished in World War II - the Allies wrote it into the surrender.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-23-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkloby

Off topic - but that must be a very strange feeling when your childhood home is not only controlled by another state, but inhabited by a different people.

When the Russians came through they went back to within German borders and remained there. I would not have been surprised if she had allways longed to return to her childhood home, especially since it was allways German land prior to WW2.