Bring Back the Draft?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-21-2006, 03:26 PM

Oh come on. Pisis thinks that stuff is Art!

Matt308 · 11-21-2006, 03:36 PM

This is art, baby.

timshatz · 11-21-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoeagles

Best thing that ever happened to my daughter was Marine JROTC in high school, turning a lazy drifter into a focused, determined young lady with a purpose. I couldn't be more proud - she is headed for language school in Monterey early next year (she went Navy, to her Dad's delight). My son was a Sea Cadet and actually loved drill and having a high standard. He graduated this past May from the Naval Academy and is now at Whiting Field for flight training. The positives of of a youngster serving their country for a few years far outweigh the negatives. Look around - it is a tough and unforgiving world for kids these days.

Good job Two Eagles, congrats on having kids that are on the ball.

mkloby · 11-22-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

Good job Two Eagles, congrats on having kids that are on the ball.

eagles - so why did your son go navy instead of Marines? My boy will get a hearty dropkick if he does that!

Matt308 · 11-22-2006, 03:01 PM

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-23-2006, 02:13 AM

He Joined the Navy to see the World...

What did he see, he saw the sea!

Just kidding twoeagles, the Navy is a good thing as well. Just to serve your country is a great thing.

uhhuh35 · 11-23-2006, 09:54 AM

During my time in the Air Force I had a supervisor who was a Police dog handler in Viet Nam. I asked him about the war and what it was like dealing with "draftee's".

He said they were the least motivated people on the base and he dreaded having to work with them. They just marked their time and complained about everything.

I figure Charlie Rangle (Democrat) just wants to permanently destroy any morale the U.S. military has.

Udet · 11-23-2006, 12:59 PM

Flyboj, hello!

I was told that currently serving in the U.S. Army (in both Iraq and Afghanistan) is an unusually high number of soldiers that are not even citizens of the U.S.A., is such a thing correct?

If so, wouldn´t that be a clear sign that the army is indeed experiencing difficulties in the human resource department?

Also, i was told citizenship ceremonies are being held where the combat is in order to have numbers of such soldiers becoming citizens of the U.S.A.

If such things are correct it would all seem pretty odd...the procedure is being followed backwards: what is usually known to be the final step in the process has now become step number one! "First you serve in our army; citizenship issues might be discussed later".

I used to believe that one of the most elemental requirements for admittance into the armies of most countries is precisely that of being a citizen of the country.

Allowing non-citizens into your army while in a state of war sounds like compromising the minimum security guidelines; while waging a war security becomes a priority, how can one country trust those precisely in charge of performing the war, the men at the frontlines, if they are not even citizens?

Do you know of any other countries where you can be allowed to serve even if you are not a citizen?

What do you think?

Cheers!

FLYBOYJ · 11-23-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

Flyboj, hello!

I was told that currently serving in the U.S. Army (in both Iraq and Afghanistan) is an unusually high number of soldiers that are not even citizens of the U.S.A., is such a thing correct?

If so, wouldn´t that be a clear sign that the army is indeed experiencing difficulties in the human resource department?

Also, i was told citizenship ceremonies are being held where the combat is in order to have numbers of such soldiers becoming citizens of the U.S.A.

If such things are correct it would all seem pretty odd...the procedure is being followed backwards: what is usually known to be the final step in the process has now become step number one! "First you serve in our army; citizenship issues might be discussed later".

I used to believe that one of the most elemental requirements for admittance into the armies of most countries is precisely that of being a citizen of the country.

Allowing non-citizens into your army while in a state of war sounds like compromising the minimum security guidelines; while waging a war security becomes a priority, how can one country trust those precisely in charge of performing the war, the men at the frontlines, if they are not even citizens?

Do you know of any other countries where you can be allowed to serve even if you are not a citizen?

What do you think?

Cheers!

Greetings Udet! Hope all is well...

You are correct for the most part - the only thing about non-US citizens serving in the military is they already have to have immigration status established before they join, in other words an illegal crossing either border just cant go to a recruiting station, join the US military and expect citizenship. One of my supervisors in the USNR wasn't a US citizen, in fact he was Iranian and Muslim! He was welcomed with open arms as a member of the military and when the day came, as a US citizen...

Adler might have other input on this from the US Army side as well....

But right now all branches of the military are stretched too thin, especially the Army and Marines...

mkloby · 11-23-2006, 10:00 PM

I can say that the Marines are doing much better than our brothers in the army - but this is because the army has so many more troops there. There's always a MEF in Iraq, which is upwards of 30,000 Marines. 1 Marine Division, 1 Marine Air Wing, and a whole Force Service Support Group. Bear in mind we have over 175,000 marines. Marines generally work off 6-7 month deployments - which are much more friendly than the army's 14 monthers.

Make no mistake - if anyone gets out of line - we have a whole other MEF we can send to make friends with them... all the while still having another MEF stateside, and then there's the USMCR. There's a whole lot of whoopin' we can still do!

BTW - in the marines we have some foreign nationals, but not all too many. A lot of them, however, are very dedicated Marines, and will quite literally die for this country they want to be citizens so badly. Chokes me up.

timshatz · 11-24-2006, 09:28 AM

Think there has always been a large number of foriegners in the US Military. Knew there were some in when I was in back in the 80s. Many had already done time in other militaries (guy from NZ comes to mind). Plus, a bunch of Canadians. Never asked any of them why they were in, they had far more rank than I.

But back to the point, plenty of foriegn born serving in the US Military. Always have been. The GAR (Civil War) is a very good example. There were whole Corps that were primarily from another country. Irish and German were predominant. But there were plenty of others (Poles, Brits, Italians). Even one story some time back of a Chinese guy who was at Gettysburg. Talk about being a long way from home!

Lastly, and this is purely a technical point but it is worth throwing out there, wasn't the whole Continental Army technically a foriegn born force. Given that it was a revolution and they were British Citizens (at best) beforehand, wouldn't the act of starting a country mean they all started as citizens somewhere else?

(The potential oddity to that point would be someone 8 years old or younger who was born after July 4th, 1776 and went into the Continental Military as a dummer boy or powder monkey- In which case he would be the first true American born solider)

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-24-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

I was told that currently serving in the U.S. Army (in both Iraq and Afghanistan) is an unusually high number of soldiers that are not even citizens of the U.S.A., is such a thing correct?

Yes but not as many as you think. It is not like a large percent are fighting over there. The ones that are over there are fighting just as good as the soldiers that are citizens as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

If so, wouldn´t that be a clear sign that the army is indeed experiencing difficulties in the human resource department?

No that does not mean anything like that at all. The vast majority of the soldiers in the Army are US citizens, Atleast 90 Percent of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

Also, i was told citizenship ceremonies are being held where the combat is in order to have numbers of such soldiers becoming citizens of the U.S.A.

Yes a law was passed that if a soldier who is not a citizen is in Iraq it should be quicker for them to become citizens. The way I see it is this, if they are willing to fight by my side for the same cause and just as easily die as myself then they deserve to be US citizens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

If such things are correct it would all seem pretty odd...the procedure is being followed backwards: what is usually known to be the final step in the process has now become step number one! "First you serve in our army; citizenship issues might be discussed later".

No they are all legal citizens of the US. You can not join the US Army as an illegal immigrant. They all have to do the same paperwork and same everything else as the other people that are not in the Army. The bill is just that if you are willing to die for the US then you can become a citizen faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

I used to believe that one of the most elemental requirements for admittance into the armies of most countries is precisely that of being a citizen of the country.

No you can serve in the US Military as a non US citizen but you can not become an officer. I had a Canadian, a Hatian, a Columbian, a German, a Mexican and man from Ghana all serve with me when I was in Iraq.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

Allowing non-citizens into your army while in a state of war sounds like compromising the minimum security guidelines; while waging a war security becomes a priority, how can one country trust those precisely in charge of performing the war, the men at the frontlines, if they are not even citizens?

Why does someone have to be a citizen to fight by your side? The Army is like a family Udet. They dont just take 20,000 soldiers and say, hey you guys are now a unit, you dont each other but you are going to Iraq together and going to fight together. The units are cohesive and know each other as brothers and sisters. For the most part you can trust your self.

The 6 men from different countries up there that I served in Iraq with are all very close friends of mine and I would die for them and I know they would have died for me as well. They did there job with honor and valor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

Do you know of any other countries where you can be allowed to serve even if you are not a citizen?

Udet you would be surprised but many nations in the world allow non citizens to serve. If you immigrate to the nation legally you can serve. You can hold a job and you can serve.

Cheers![/quote]

ndicki · 11-24-2006, 12:00 PM

It's pretty similar in our lot - you need to be a British Subject in order to hold HM's Commission - which means Canadians, Australians, NZers etc can apply for Officer training. We even had a South African serving as a Territorial Officer, at a time when South Africa was not even in the Commonwealth.

I seem to remember that soldiers had to have lived for 5 years in the UK unless they were Commonwealth or Irish. As there were more volunteers than space available, I can't remember any non-Commonwealth people serving with us.

If we were too picky about nationalities, we'd lose some very good people - start with the Gurkhas!

Actually, along those lines, a Scottish soldier once came up to me in a pub, after visibly having a few, and bawled," Sair! Why is it, sair, tha' in the Scortish Regiments, all the f*cking officairs are f*cking English, sair?!?"

I had had one or two, too, or I'd never have dared to say what I did answer,"Perfectly normal. Colonial troops need white officers."

He ended up buying me a drink!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-24-2006, 12:24 PM

That is funny ndicki!

Udet · 11-24-2006, 04:16 PM

Flyboyj and Adler:

Thank you very much for your comments.

You are right Adler, the men of one army can certainly become brothers.

When i stayed in Mexico, for instance, i learned that when the U.S.A. invaded Mexico, a few thousands of Irish joined the Mexican army and fought bravely and loyally against the invading army. In several mexican cities you will find many streets and even squares that bear the "Batallón de San Patricio" or "St. Patrick´s Batallion" name, honoring those Irish men who joined the mexicans in the fight. The names of those Irish mean Mexican War Heroes in history books of that country. Although I knew of this particular case, through my mind crossed the idea of a situation of extreme danger to the Mexican nation; a powerful enemy advancing further into your territory...well, admitting everyone willing to fight by your side in such situation seems quite understandable, even if they are foreigners.

I must admit I learned something new regarding this issue; as far as I am concerned, i never learned of any non-Russians (or at least non-soviet) people being allowed in the present day Russian army.

By the way Der Adler, is it true that when talking of foreigners (who of course will become U.S. citizens) serving in the U.S. Army, the mexicans will be -by far- the most numerous of them all?

Cheers!

A.T.R.