Can the EU keep peace in Europe

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Sinn Fein have absolutely no sway in the U.K. Gerry Adams is about as important or worthwhile to the British public as a dog turd. Ian Paisley had the right idea; Northern Ireland is majority protestant and he wants it to be a part of the Union - just like his people do. They're not even worth mentioning alongside George Gallaway. You're better mention "Red" Ken Livingstone - the London Mayor.

Delayed response pd - but that I wouldn't say that Paisley had the "right idea" if you ask republicans. How does the british public feel about the GFA? Gerry Adams did a lot to make that happen. Your opnion on the North completely depends on your emotional feeling on the issue. Having a lot of Irish roots in my family, we support the republican cause. Leads to another problem: the referendum for the North - should it be the whole island, or confined to just the North. Each method would assure a different outcome, and the method you support probably dictates the side you support as well. GFA dropped that demand to make it possible.

[Delusional]

No one is suggesting that the government owes them those things, mkloby, but I am suggesting that the government owes them equal access to those things. You say "their own citizens" as though (legal) immigrants are not citizens of their own nation (the one they have immigrated to and have gained citizenship in). It is this sort of separatist thought that leads to problems. It is silly to think that our government doesn't at least provide education (public education) and some jobs for us. When these systems are geared toward Caucasians, immigrants have to do more than bust their arse, they have to change their skin color. The point is that the hostility exists within groups that are already British citizens. As bigZ pointed out, these are British-born Muslims causing these problems, not first or second generation immigrants. People look at them and assume that they are not citizens, that they are not entitled to all of the benefits of citizenship, but they are. You're thinking along the lines of those with work permits, etc. However, when we define citizenship by skin color (i.e. our definition of an American conjures up images of a white person), we exclude those who have the rights to full citizenship.

[mkloby]

I agree with you in the theory of non-discrimination, but how do you go about legislating that through the government? Legislating morality always is extremely difficult at best. Ok, I misunderstood your meaning - but once you immigrate and step foot in a new country doesn't mean you instantly become a citizen of that country - and in that time period I don't believe that an immigrant should be entitled to any of the entitlements that a citizen is allowed.

[Delusional]

So there should be no laws protecting immigrants' (non-citizens') equal access to things such as housing and education? I understand that you are advocating no handouts...no one would advocate free handouts, but I am simply saying that no country should treat their immigrants (or their citizens who by looks alone many assume are immigrants with no citizenship) as second-class citizens. We don't have to make it impossible or extremely difficult for immigrants to survive in their new nations.

[Emac44]

Problem is what Delusionable isn't taking into account is that England is a multiculural country and has policies in place like anti discrimination laws. Not only in just with Government Organisations etc but also under Industrial Laws and embedded into the Anti Descrimination acts and charters. For example under Anti Discrimination Laws it is illegal to discriminate against any one group based on religion sex gender political affiliations and union affiliiations. And with that in place with Anti Discrimination laws in place and equal opportunity employment which would cover migrant services as well. Where is the problem with Islamic 3rd generation youth coming from. Now taking into consideration that there are non muslim youth being unemployed in all areas of British Society should the Islamic 3rd generation youth feel discriminated against in British Society. And also remembering that its a problem in many western countries with Anti Discrimination Laws in place. Some member of the Muslim Lebanese community in Sydney Australia have had riots and other criminal activities in and around Sydney for a number of years. And 5 Lebanese Muslims youths have been jailed for pack rape on 3 teenage girls in the Sydney area. Can this be put down to discrimination in Australia or England. Or is it more of the case that these youths are coming under and influence even outside the normal control of parental groups inside their own communities. It is easy to turn around and say its a governmental problem with those problems already occurring or saying its because of discrimination of the citizens already in the country towards immigrants. But the point is Anti discrimination laws in employment and government does already exsist. And it is only 1 section of the migrant population in total that are causing problems beyond their actual size and group. Or is it due to their religious ideology they want special treatment and organisations set up for them which no other group of migrants have or want or even need. And racial violence isn't a stranger to English shores as i well remember the Bradford riots during the 1980s with Asian White and Black youths rioting in Bradford. Also Football hooliganism riots and violence at football matches prior to and after the matches taking place. Also the Football Clubs and sporting organisations sponsoring anti discrimination in the sport. So if England is treating their migrants as 2nd or even 3rd class citizens then the English Government is going a strange way about it to accomodate certain migrant groups to have these laws in place and to have Anti Discrimination acts and charters in place to protect the rights off all regardless of race and gender. However one can make and legislate laws as such but one can not ban actual thought of individuals. racism does occur but so does counter racism. For example the 5 Lebanese Youths arrested in Sydney for pack rape on 3 teenage girls said to their victims Now you white whore you are getting it Leb Musso style and there are other related incidents where muslim youths have been causing problems in crime gangs in the suburbs of Sydney itself. From Dulwich Hills to Cronulla. However with the Muslim Youth Gangs do we as a society turn a blind eye to any Gangs regardless of their religious ideology allow them to continue to break the laws of the land. Answer is no we do not. If the Muslim Gangs feel they are being prejudised against because of police activities in those communities inside England then these gangs only have to realize why the police are raiding these gangs in England. Doesn't take a rocket scienctist to come to the conclusion that the activities of these Gangs are coming under police attention by the gangs breaking the laws of England and the community in general

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Delusional

So there should be no laws protecting immigrants' (non-citizens') equal access to things such as housing and education? I understand that you are advocating no handouts...no one would advocate free handouts, but I am simply saying that no country should treat their immigrants (or their citizens who by looks alone many assume are immigrants with no citizenship) as second-class citizens. We don't have to make it impossible or extremely difficult for immigrants to survive in their new nations.

I agree with you. In a perfect world there would be no discrimination. However, this isn't a perfect world. Anti-discrimination laws are more of a facade in many respects than actually producing any positive result. As it has been said and emac touched upon, you cannot legislate morality. Prejudice, in all shapes and forms, is ingrained into all us humans from the moment we enter this world. Some individuals are outright racists and bigots - no legislation will make that go away.

You can easily pass a law like in the US making it illegal to discriminate for housing based upon race, sex, religion, etc. But how do you enforce it? How does one proove that they were discriminated against? Unfortunately, this is a matter that legislation will never be able to adequately resolve.

[plan_D]

Delusional;

First of all, you don't live in Great Britain. And you have just proven to me that you have no idea about this country.

"First of all, the BNP has absolutely no power. Local power in England means nothing. With no MPs in the House of Commons, they're nothing. And the British system will surely keep it that way. They got like 0.7% of the vote last election!"

I would expect more sense from you. It's not a matter of the BNP having power in the actual parliament. It is a case of the government realising people are voting for the BNP.

You claim they are nothing; but as you are not living in Britain you miss out on the media coverage they get. We can see the panic they cause amongst the leading parties when all of them join to say "Vote anyone but BNP". And as the votes increase as they have done every election, the other parties will take more and more notice.

That's exactly what the BNP want. If you believe the BNP actually want to take office, then you truely are delusional.

"Second of all, how can you say that Labour is becoming more and more left? They've continued Thatcher's policies about as much as the Conservatives would if they were in power. Their manifesto doesn't even specifically focus on the working-class anymore, and they've dropped a lot of their socialist ideology. All parties in Britain are and always have been relatively centrist and moderate compared to Continental Europe."

Quite easily. Again, proving you haven't got a clue. Labour is becoming more and more open to immigration; the socialist policies are directed at immigrants and a call for "tough on crime" leads to "don't send them to prison". That's left.

"Lastly, Ken Livingstone has a good point, in some ways. England treats its immigrants like second-class citizens, denying them jobs, housing, and education. Many of these terrorists are protesting being treated this way in a country that they call their home. England's immigrant population is only about 3%, and yet you all still whine about it. Treat them like human beings, and then maybe your own citizens won't bomb your subways."

Now this was perfect. Obviously some left-wing college lecturer is seeing you through with bull-sh*t. Maybe you need to get a clue, lass, before the world bites you ass.

The British government denies white people jobs, housing and education to give them to immigrants. It's leftist liars like you that keep that happening. It's well known, and has been announced by the media, that the Police forces will accept blacks and asians above whites. Coventry police force actually denied any white applicant; only the foreign applicants had a chance.
Housing is handed to foreigners above whites on the basis that they want mixed communities. So, a white community will be filled with blacks. Even if a white person has been on the housing list longer. Doesn't CNN tell you this?

Where do you get this crap that Britain denies immigrants anything? They get everything HANDED to them. Walk British streets and compare white homeless to foreign homeless.

3% RECORDED are not British in this country - the government admits that the true population is HIGHER. And this multi-culture bollocks doesn't work out - there's places where the foreigner is the majority. Muslims have ADMITTED on TV that they want to breed the British population out.

It's people like YOU that are TRUELY delusional and from several thousand miles away CLAIM you know that ruin this country. If you had half a spark of a brain cell, you'd keep quiet and learn for once. You say we treat them badly - by giving them everything!? Yeah, right. They get benefits, housing, jobs - anything they want. Tell where you get this bullshit info and I'll set them straight. In fact, all teh bullshitters you talk to...come over to Britain, I'll give you grand fu*cking tour and education your clueless asses to reality. Then I'll walk you into a multi-cultural side of Bradford and watch your asses get torn apart by these humans.

mkloby, the Republicans hate Paisley, I know. But Northern Ireland is majority protestant; they want to stay British. In a nice world it all wouldn't matter - but being British and seeing the majority there are Protestant British, we need to keep it that way.

IN BRITAIN, EVERYONE, IMMIGRANTS GET HAND-OUTS! And they are given priority to the White British for housing, jobs and education. Come over, and I'll let you talk to the civil servants who deal with it. A friend of mine has been on the council housing list for years; and the person who interviewed him admitted that as Doncaster is majority white (in the council houses) the foreign applicants will be put forward before him. At least the man was honest.

So wherever ANYONE is getting the bullshit that we treat immigrants like ****. Just go somewhere and die, or come over and I'll show you the TRUTH to this country. If you think you know more than me about a country I live in, then get a clue. I can stand in the middle of my town and hear four or five different languages, and all will be well dressed with expensive clothing...these ill-treated **** suckers are given EVERYTHING. Even where I work the managers cannot warn any foreigner for ANYTHING because they play the race card. They've done it before.

But Delusional, you must know better - being several thousand miles away with your leftist brethren, leftist books and leftist media. Get a clue, then come back and talk to me.

I invite anyone on here to come over; and I'll change your mind in an instant. I'll show you the truth.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Where do you get this crap that Britain denies immigrants anything? They get everything HANDED to them.

Sounds like Germany...

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by plan_D

mkloby, the Republicans hate Paisley, I know. But Northern Ireland is majority protestant; they want to stay British. In a nice world it all wouldn't matter - but being British and seeing the majority there are Protestant British, we need to keep it that way.

I know they're primarily protestant - about 2/3 if I remember right. But that brings into play national sovereignty, and just how far do you want to take that. That's what I meant by referendum on the whole of Ireland for the future of the whole island (which I support), or a referendum for just the North - which I believe you support. Then you have the whole British occupation, but that brings into question other problems. How far back do you take this "ownership" of the land. This is why I said it's emotional before, not really based on objective thinking.

Edit: looked up figures, Catholic population is up from 35.3% in 1961 to 43.76% in 2001. Seems I used an outdated number. If these numbers keep rising, Pd, what about when the North is primarily Catholic?

Originally Posted by plan_D

I invite anyone on here to come over; and I'll change your mind in an instant. I'll show you the truth.

is that an invite for free room and board to come to Britain???

[bigZ]

I think the big powder keg is still the Balkans.

I hear Karadzic and Mladic(was still getting his military pension untill recently) have still not been caught. Not supprising considering German soldiers form parades around Sarajevo's city centre, while Italian soldiers are posing for photos. At least the British are acting on intelliigence regarding weapons stashes and war criminals.

These 2 are not likely to be caught especially with Serbia being rewarded for its non co-operation by allowing it to start seeking NATO membership which will in turn become EU membership.

How can the EU(which is primarily economic in outlook) keep the peace when these 2 bastards find it so easy to stay at large.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Delusional;

First of all, you don't live in Great Britain. And you have just proven to me that you have no idea about this country.

"First of all, the BNP has absolutely no power. Local power in England means nothing. With no MPs in the House of Commons, they're nothing. And the British system will surely keep it that way. They got like 0.7% of the vote last election!"

I would expect more sense from you. It's not a matter of the BNP having power in the actual parliament. It is a case of the government realising people are voting for the BNP.

You claim they are nothing; but as you are not living in Britain you miss out on the media coverage they get. We can see the panic they cause amongst the leading parties when all of them join to say "Vote anyone but BNP". And as the votes increase as they have done every election, the other parties will take more and more notice.

That's exactly what the BNP want. If you believe the BNP actually want to take office, then you truely are delusional.

"Second of all, how can you say that Labour is becoming more and more left? They've continued Thatcher's policies about as much as the Conservatives would if they were in power. Their manifesto doesn't even specifically focus on the working-class anymore, and they've dropped a lot of their socialist ideology. All parties in Britain are and always have been relatively centrist and moderate compared to Continental Europe."

Quite easily. Again, proving you haven't got a clue. Labour is becoming more and more open to immigration; the socialist policies are directed at immigrants and a call for "tough on crime" leads to "don't send them to prison". That's left.

"Lastly, Ken Livingstone has a good point, in some ways. England treats its immigrants like second-class citizens, denying them jobs, housing, and education. Many of these terrorists are protesting being treated this way in a country that they call their home. England's immigrant population is only about 3%, and yet you all still whine about it. Treat them like human beings, and then maybe your own citizens won't bomb your subways."

Now this was perfect. Obviously some left-wing college lecturer is seeing you through with bull-sh*t. Maybe you need to get a clue, lass, before the world bites you ass.

The British government denies white people jobs, housing and education to give them to immigrants. It's leftist liars like you that keep that happening. It's well known, and has been announced by the media, that the Police forces will accept blacks and asians above whites. Coventry police force actually denied any white applicant; only the foreign applicants had a chance.
Housing is handed to foreigners above whites on the basis that they want mixed communities. So, a white community will be filled with blacks. Even if a white person has been on the housing list longer. Doesn't CNN tell you this?

Where do you get this crap that Britain denies immigrants anything? They get everything HANDED to them. Walk British streets and compare white homeless to foreign homeless.

3% RECORDED are not British in this country - the government admits that the true population is HIGHER. And this multi-culture bollocks doesn't work out - there's places where the foreigner is the majority. Muslims have ADMITTED on TV that they want to breed the British population out.

It's people like YOU that are TRUELY delusional and from several thousand miles away CLAIM you know that ruin this country. If you had half a spark of a brain cell, you'd keep quiet and learn for once. You say we treat them badly - by giving them everything!? Yeah, right. They get benefits, housing, jobs - anything they want. Tell where you get this bullshit info and I'll set them straight. In fact, all teh bullshitters you talk to...come over to Britain, I'll give you grand fu*cking tour and education your clueless asses to reality. Then I'll walk you into a multi-cultural side of Bradford and watch your asses get torn apart by these humans.

mkloby, the Republicans hate Paisley, I know. But Northern Ireland is majority protestant; they want to stay British. In a nice world it all wouldn't matter - but being British and seeing the majority there are Protestant British, we need to keep it that way.

IN BRITAIN, EVERYONE, IMMIGRANTS GET HAND-OUTS! And they are given priority to the White British for housing, jobs and education. Come over, and I'll let you talk to the civil servants who deal with it. A friend of mine has been on the council housing list for years; and the person who interviewed him admitted that as Doncaster is majority white (in the council houses) the foreign applicants will be put forward before him. At least the man was honest.

So wherever ANYONE is getting the bullshit that we treat immigrants like ****. Just go somewhere and die, or come over and I'll show you the TRUTH to this country. If you think you know more than me about a country I live in, then get a clue. I can stand in the middle of my town and hear four or five different languages, and all will be well dressed with expensive clothing...these ill-treated **** suckers are given EVERYTHING. Even where I work the managers cannot warn any foreigner for ANYTHING because they play the race card. They've done it before.

But Delusional, you must know better - being several thousand miles away with your leftist brethren, leftist books and leftist media. Get a clue, then come back and talk to me.

I invite anyone on here to come over; and I'll change your mind in an instant. I'll show you the truth.

I agree with you mate. I stated that in another form to what you was saying to Delusionable. What you have said is the same i have heard from other Englishmen and women for over 20 years or more now. And from consensus of why Englishmen and women migrate to Australia for the very reason you are stating and i live 12,000 miles away from England but have a reasonable knowledge of your industrial laws and anti discrimination laws as they are similar to here Plan

[plan_D]

Firstly, I must apologise for kicking off. I had a bad day and blatant lies; like those put forward about my country tipped me over the edge. However, I didn't say anything that wasn't true.

Chris;

From what I have seen of Germany (not much, I know); Britain is an even softer touch to those that do not deserve it and foreign migrants. I know we chatted about this a little when I was over there. It's a problem throughout Europe.

Matt;

I see your point completely. I was already angry so couldn't really answer you straight. Northern Ireland is a very difficult situation as I'm sure you know; I for one did a history assignment on Northern Ireland while in school.

I personally think the North should be kept seperate but with a joint Catholic-Protestant parliament. But I'm going to be honest; the country will never be sorted out. It's up to the people themselves to accept their position; whether Ireland reunites or not - someone will be upset.

I'm not going to pretend I know how to solve the problem - it's been there since the split in 1921; and even before that.

And when I get sorted; I would gladly put you or anyone else up for a week or two. Albeit I don't think you'd want to visit Doncaster...

Emac;

Well, since you have spoken to many British migrants and people like me - I will take that you know more than most people that haven't been here; or even spoken to many Brits.
I've known 12 people; with their families that have migrated to Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All those left because they were getting ripped off in this country and/or were appalled at the increase in hand-outs given to the stupid amount of immigrants flooding the country, and smashing British culture to pieces.

I don't want to leave the great heritage of Great Britain to the dogs; but I'm afraid I will do when given half the chance.

[bigZ]

I was out in NZ for a month and have some relatives living their. I hope to migrate their soon.

Its not without its problems but I liked the positive attitude and the facilities/activities for kids(Have 2 kids under 3). Seems a very family orientated place. Believe Aussies have similar outlook even though their is a friendly rivalary between the 2 countries.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Firstly, I must apologise for kicking off. I had a bad day and blatant lies; like those put forward about my country tipped me over the edge. However, I didn't say anything that wasn't true.

No worries. Happens sometimes.

Originally Posted by plan_D

All those left because they were getting ripped off in this country and/or were appalled at the increase in hand-outs given to the stupid amount of immigrants flooding the country, and smashing British culture to pieces.

I don't want to leave the great heritage of Great Britain to the dogs; but I'm afraid I will do when given half the chance.

I can understand that feeling. Unfortunately, at least in America, it's considered bigotry to want to keep your culture and heritage from changing. It's ridiculous. A lot of the little things bother me, like calling a phone number and having to hear "for spanish press 1" before the "for english press 2." Citizens paying taxes to set up ESL (english as a 2nd language) classes so hispanics can continue to go to school speaking spanish. Often, their english is still miserable into adulthood.

Here in Corpus Christi, with a very large mexican population, all government forms are in spanish as well as english. All offices have clerks speaking spanish. Even the grocery store lays out the blocks of butter spanish side up! There's no incentive for some to even learn english. But, as long as Americans cringe at establishing English as a national official language, then that's all technically fine. People say I'm just an anti-hispanic bigot, which is not it, but if towns in Pennsylvania have the same thing with German, that will get me mad too.

[Delusional]

PD,
One policy (a stance on immigration) does not determine liberalism. For the most part, Labour is still very moderate and as much conservative as they are liberal.

It seems to me that you attribute individual problems that certain immigrants are causing to the immigrant population as a whole. That's certainly not fair. Not all Muslims want to ruin the U.K. In fact, I'm sure that a majority are more concerned with seeking out a reasonable living than with "breeding out the British population." I didn't mean to offend you, but the U.K. does not have the kind of affirmative action laws that the U.S. has. You may think that the government gives immigrants handouts, but whether that is true or a myth perpetuated by the Caucasian majority, immigrants as a whole are treated poorly by British citizens. Even those that are citizens are looked upon as inferior to a Caucasian citizen.

mkloby,
Learning English is a lot harder than you might think. You might assume that because someone does not speak perfect English that they do not care or are not trying, but this is seldom the case. There is plenty of incentive for immigrants to learn English; mainly, the poor service, rudeness, and disrespect they receive from those of us who were born into an English-speaking world. They are often treated as though they are less intelligent because they do not speak the language of the majority in a nation. Establishing English as the national official language (while I am not against it, per se) will change next to nothing. You might be able to legislate what language is on a sign, but you cannot legislate what language is in a home. The multiple non-English languages spoken in the United States will not cease to exist. By the way, 4/5 of all Americans and 2/3 of Hispanics support English becoming America's official language, and several bills have previously passed in Congress that have begun or will begin to implement this majoritarian desire.

Source:
Official English Legislation Introduced in U.S. House of Representatives