Can the EU keep peace in Europe

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree it wont end. Neither side can live in peace with one another. I do not wish to see the people of Kosovo go through this kind of slaughter again either.

[mkloby]

Milos, I think of it like this. The only reason that there are muslims in that region are because of the Muslim invasions throughout the middle ages. Muslims have gotten much of the world to sympathize with their plight. What of their plight when they were storming across Europe seizing Christian lands? I had a friend that was Serbian, and she showed me the hundreds of Orthodox religious churches and such that were bombed by terrorists, many hailing from Albania or Kosovo. The campaign of terror waged by them seems to have been very under reported here in the US.

This does not justify in any way the mass murder that took place on all sides. However, the muslims in Albania and Kosovo are descended from the Turks that took that land from the Christians. That never goes over well, and hundreds of years don't seem to help. They can't expect to be welcome in that region. Then there was the artificially created state of Yugoslavia following WWI, which was formed to counterbalance any resurgent German strength in central europe. Nobody cared that there were Catholics from Croatia and Slovenia, Orthodox Christians in most of the rest of Yugoslavia, and Muslims in the regions around Albania.

I think Yugoslavia was a doomed state from its founding.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by mkloby

Milos, I think of it like this. The only reason that there are muslims in that region are because of the Muslim invasions throughout the middle ages. Muslims have gotten much of the world to sympathize with their plight. What of their plight when they were storming across Europe seizing Christian lands? I had a friend that was Serbian, and she showed me the hundreds of Orthodox religious churches and such that were bombed by terrorists, many hailing from Albania or Kosovo. The campaign of terror waged by them seems to have been very under reported here in the US.

This does not justify in any way the mass murder that took place on all sides. However, the muslims in Albania and Kosovo are descended from the Turks that took that land from the Christians. That never goes over well, and hundreds of years don't seem to help. They can't expect to be welcome in that region. Then there was the artificially created state of Yugoslavia following WWI, which was formed to counterbalance any resurgent German strength in central europe. Nobody cared that there were Catholics from Croatia and Slovenia, Orthodox Christians in most of the rest of Yugoslavia, and Muslims in the regions around Albania.

I think Yugoslavia was a doomed state from its founding.

And I agree with you Mkloby. Add in the mix of Macedonians Croats Albanians Bosinins Serbs Muslims Hungririans Poles Turks some Northern Greeks add in 2000 years of mistrust and hatred plus memories of the Austro Hungririan Empire and what occured during WW2 with 2 vastly different types of freedom fighters one employed by the Germans the others under Tito and the Allies and 2 wars since Tito died and Yugoslavia dissolved into bedlam in the last 20 years and Europe has problems. Milos I wish I could say from what I see that Serbia and Muslims in Kosvo could find peace I just do not see it happening. The region of the world you live in was the flash point to WW1 when the Arch Duke and his Wife were killed in 1914 and if memory serves me right that was in Kosvo as well. Problem of your part of the world Milos it has been a land of a clash of cultures from Asia and Europe. Clash of religious ideology as well Christianity and Islam and some of the bitterest wars and battles from your region in the world have come about in the Middle Ages just after the Christian Crusades to the Holy Land and up until the present date. Even though Vlad the Impaler came from Hungrary and was famous for impaling his enemies either being Muslim or not made little difference to Vlad the Impaler. Bad and bitter blood of hundreds of years of war and inhumanity course though the Balkans as a whole Milos. I do not see it settling to peace in my life time. I do see it flaring into another war in my life time though and like World War One have the ability to drag in the rest of Europe into this war

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There are just too many ethnic groups in one small location.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

There are just too many ethnic groups in one small location.

Just in the Balkans Adler or in Europe in general

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would say Europe in general but the Balkan region is certainly the worst for that problem.

[Emac44]

I agree. My summation of the place is like a Cauldron and Hotch Pot ready to boil over at any given moment and time. It just needs to right fire to flare it up and the rest of Europe in comparison is like beggar boys standing around a wild fire hoping not to get burnt

[Matt308]

...and with the Russkies with their new found oil wealth... uh oh.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You have been reading too much Tom Clancy Matt...

[timshatz]

I agree with most of what has been tossed around on this board. The current peace in Europe won't last. The EU is another union, complete with handbook for members. Think it is only a matter of time before the bullets fly. Balkans could be the flashpoint, done it before (at least 2x in the last century), or the Russians deciding they need a buffer zone, or any of the other countries if the welfare states go broke. Money is usually the reason why they start slugging it out (when you get to the bottom of it).

But as long as things are good, local disturbances (read: occasional civil wars) will most likely stay local. It's when budgets get tight that the old hatreds rear their heads.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

There are just too many ethnic groups in one small location.

sounds like Toronto

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by timshatz

I agree with most of what has been tossed around on this board. The current peace in Europe won't last. The EU is another union, complete with handbook for members. Think it is only a matter of time before the bullets fly. Balkans could be the flashpoint, done it before (at least 2x in the last century), or the Russians deciding they need a buffer zone, or any of the other countries if the welfare states go broke. Money is usually the reason why they start slugging it out (when you get to the bottom of it).

But as long as things are good, local disturbances (read: occasional civil wars) will most likely stay local. It's when budgets get tight that the old hatreds rear their heads.

And that is the point Tim. Possibley all it needs is one world wide depression on economic basis and money and employment get short every where or even a European Economic Depression or the Euro is suddenly devalued and inflation sets in could be a trigger for a slug fest, its not like it hasn't happened before Tim. I kind of half listened to the news the other day when President Charac announced his retirement from politics in France. the media glossed over some facts about Charac standing up to opposition to war in Iraq etc. But some other points were made late in the media release that not everything in France is so economically assured as far as employment and financial growth is concerned and not something it appears the French Govt likes to admit to and from what I understand unemployment for those under 25 yrs of age is moderately high which is just the right age to say either a ultra right wing or left wing groups to target for extreme politics. I suppose when you are broke and unemployed with anger about not getting fair share of the economic pie so to speak and mix it with fair doses of Ultra extreme politics may have the situation like what occured in Germany prior to WW2. More than likely these hardline political groups would want to find a scapegoat to blame for economic downturn in economy. Whats to stop them blaming neighbouring countries or select areas of the population based on religious ideology. Its been done before many a time

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

You have been reading too much Tom Clancy Matt...

Yeah I know. But Adler, you need to brush up on latest world economics. Russia is expanding its economy within the last few years based solely upon the huge oil reserves that Russia is entering into the world market. This is directly related to Yukos being jailed and the threats of denying energy resources to Belarus. Russia has a weakness that their pipelines run through post-Soviet countries, but those same countries also depend on the same pipeline. Russia's proceeds of feeding western europe are filling her coffers with drastically needed disposable cash. And this is the fuel that feeds the Putin regime. A biproduct of this influx of money is a projected 16-20% increase in military spending. And look at the muscles being flexed in the Russian private sector. The press is being stifled and in some cases even eliminated. The people are being monetarily incentivised to make more children. And the aerospace industry is being revitalized with purchases of new western aircraft and coordinated upgrades to Russian indigenous aircraft with western technology.

Russia is flexing its wings once again and its source of wealth is directly oil related. I'm keeping my on them. For they seem to be willing to sell their souls for instant wealth and the Chinese are always willing to buy.

[mkloby]

I believe I read that Russia provides upwards of 75-80% of european gas resources.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by Matt308

Yeah I know. But Adler, you need to brush up on latest world economics. Russia is expanding its economy within the last few years based solely upon the huge oil reserves that Russia is entering into the world market. This is directly related to Yukos being jailed and the threats of denying energy resources to Belarus. Russia has a weakness that their pipelines run through post-Soviet countries, but those same countries also depend on the same pipeline. Russia's proceeds of feeding western europe are filling her coffers with drastically needed disposable cash. And this is the fuel that feeds the Putin regime. A biproduct of this influx of money is a projected 16-20% increase in military spending. And look at the muscles being flexed in the Russian private sector. The press is being stifled and in some cases even eliminated. The people are being monetarily incentivised to make more children. And the aerospace industry is being revitalized with purchases of new western aircraft and coordinated upgrades to Russian indigenous aircraft with western technics

Russia is flexing its wings once again and its source of wealth is directly oil related. I'm keeping my on them. For they seem to be willing to sell their souls for instant wealth and the Chinese are always willing to buy.

And here is another kicker Matt. those former USSR saterlites with oil do not want anything to do with Puttin or Russia. Thinking of Cheztnia or however you spell it. My thinking its Russia's Iraq one might say in comparison. But how much do you hear of the Atrocities and the butchers bill do you hear of that part Matt. Not bloody much my friend but it has the ability to **** up rest of Europe at any given time. And its not just oil its minerals and other ores that Russia is taking from the region. Add to it as well half the population is Muslim. Its not that long ago about the school think it was Belsain correct me if I am wrong on that name of the school invasion by rebels and the whole **** up later. What is to stop similar attack by rebels in other parts of Europe and at a school or college similar to what occured 2 years ago??????