 | Castro hands power to brother during surgery| Politics Discuss Castro hands power to brother during surgery in the Current forums; Yes. Capitalism isn't prefect but still one level above the Communism...
kiwi has spent time in the New Zealand ... |
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08-08-2006, 03:00 PM
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#31 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Praga Mater Urbium
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Country:  | Yes. Capitalism isn't prefect but still one level above the Communism... Quote: |
kiwi has spent time in the New Zealand Army, and pb was in the Canadian Air Force.
| Being in the army doesn't neccessarily mean the person gets matured or has nice opinions. But leave this alone, this thread is about Cuba.
Last edited by Pisis : 08-08-2006 at 03:04 PM.
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08-08-2006, 03:07 PM
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#32 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
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Originally Posted by Pisis Yes. Capitalism isn't prefect but still one level above the communism... | NO.
Capitalism like in Western Europe, USA, Australia etc. IS ABSOLUTELY better than Comunism, capitalism like it was in Cuba and in several other Countries is AT LEAST as bad as communism.
The problem is always the same: there is no good power if you let it to itself.
To have civilization, development and freedom the power must be limited and controlled.
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08-09-2006, 03:36 AM
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#33 | | Senior Member
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Country: | On Cuba, there's no capitalism, there's a wicked socialism... | |
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08-09-2006, 07:41 AM
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#34 | | Senior Member
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| Yes, Pisis, on this we agree: if you take a closer look you'll see that I wrote 'capitalism like it WAS in Cuba..' 
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He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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08-09-2006, 08:36 AM
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#35 | | Senior Member
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Country: | Yeah. In Capitalism, you basically have the choice. In Communism (Socialism), you don't. | |
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08-09-2006, 09:48 AM
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#36 | | Senior Member
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Country:  | Communism is a more extreme version of Socialism. In a lot of aspects, Great Britain is a socialist country. Hopefully, soon, we can stop the tide of social liberals which are tearing this country to pieces but until then, it's very much Social Liberal.
Great Britain is a perfect example of how leftist government doesn't have a clue. Back in the day when Great Britain was right-wing, conservative, we had a massive Empire and was the most powerful nation in the world.
Times changed and we had to adapt, so after World War II so socialist changes were brought into place - such as the National Health Service, when labour were voted in after the war. But the country as a whole was still more right thinking. It was that way until the 1980s - before the 1980s, Great Britain held a position of power, and everyone had respect for everyone else. Crimes were punished, jobs were available and strikes were few and far between. Then the 1980s come along, and the leftist unions and left thinkers bring in coal strikes that brought the country to a three-day week, military cuts that have brought the forces down to a pathetic 100,000 men, benefits for everything, foreigners flooding the system, and crimes go unpunished.
I'll tell you what, if a fascist government was brought in that made this country how it was in the 1970s - I wouldn't complain.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004  To those in that club. | |
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08-09-2006, 10:12 AM
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#37 | | Senior Member
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Country: | Yes, because you are a fascist yourself. 
No, seriously, I'm a Social Democrat myslef - I think that it is a moral obligation of the state to give the poor the help-hand. On the other way, it must not be exploited. Which in bigger scale is almost impossible.
Capitalsim vs. socialism is a complete clash of motivations. Capitalism forces you to work on your best, being motivated by the fact you can grow, that if you neighbour has a new car, you can have it too, if you work hard.
On the other hand, socialism (or communism) is a wicked logic. It motivates you to do nothing. Look at France, they're still stuck in the French revolution ideas, and they're going to ****... | |
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08-09-2006, 10:18 AM
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#38 | | Senior Member
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| As Communism is the extremization of Socialism, dictatures like existed in Cuba and exist in several South-American countries are the extremization of Capitalism.
In both extremes you have no choice, if you are on the weak side.
Of course if you were a landlord in Brasil or part of Nomenklatura in former USSR you have plenty of choices.
A well managed socialist/welfare approach as is in Sweden (although nominally a kingdom) is a nice place to live.
And in general moderate welfare states (like Germany, Italy, France..) are better places to live than more conservative states (ex: USA) if your family income is (roughly) below $ 150-200k per year. No matter how much more taxes you have to pay.
Above that money you live better in USA.
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He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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08-09-2006, 10:38 AM
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#39 | | "Shooter"
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,892
Country:  | There are few families that make that much money here in the US. We certainly don't have that kind of income and can live relatively well in most states. California is an obvious exception as home prices are out of control and the taxation is getting uglier.
In most places you could live quite well on half of what you mentioned.
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08-09-2006, 10:43 AM
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#40 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Parmigiano As Communism is the extremization of Socialism, dictatures like existed in Cuba and exist in several South-American countries are the extremization of Capitalism.
In both extremes you have no choice, if you are on the weak side.
Of course if you were a landlord in Brasil or part of Nomenklatura in former USSR you have plenty of choices.
A well managed socialist/welfare approach as is in Sweden (although nominally a kingdom) is a nice place to live.
And in general moderate welfare states (like Germany, Italy, France..) are better places to live than more conservative states (ex: USA) if your family income is (roughly) below $ 150-200k per year. No matter how much more taxes you have to pay.
Above that money you live better in USA. | Actually I make way below 150K and live pretty well. It depends what part of the country you're in and how you stand financially. I know a lot of people who complain they they have no money and "the rich keep getting richer," but they forget its the rich that generates income by investment and job creation, but in addition these folks who complain ran their credit through the ceiling and now are nothing but "working poor."
BTW I was once one of these folks (working poor) until I paid off all my credit cards. The only thing I owe money on is my house....
The moral of the story - a lot of the standard of living is based on how financially sound you are. We may have to pay for much of our health insurance coverage but the long term benefit is the low taxes we pay when compared to Europe.
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08-09-2006, 10:54 AM
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#41 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
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Country:  | Well said Joe,
I don't know about you but I have never had a poor man give me a job.
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08-09-2006, 10:58 AM
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#42 | | Senior Member
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| I apologize Evan and others, I've been too generic...
The comparison is between two 'good places to live', not between a 'good' and a 'bad', and the assumption is a standard family (parents and 1-2 kids)
I was not saying that below 150k your life is hell in US, but that up to that income life is a bit better in I,F,D. Say that, given 100 you quality of life in US with that income, you are probably 105-110 in the other countries I mentioned.
But if your family income is 50k, you can definitely manage better in Italy than in US.
Going up in the income, in US you have better quality, because of a less nosy Government, lower fiscal pressure and other things. But of course this does not means that in France your life is bad with a $300k income!
That opinion comes from my experience and observation: I live most of time in Italy, had some significant experience in France and Germany and my wife (unfortunately) live and work in the States ( W. DC and now Atlanta), so in planning 'what's the best option to be finally together in future' I went through the exercise to compare possible livings.
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He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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08-09-2006, 11:13 AM
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#43 | | Senior Member
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Country: | It also depends on what do you consider as "living well"... But thinking like that will make our discussion much wider and more spiritual... | |
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08-09-2006, 11:18 AM
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#44 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
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Originally Posted by Pisis It also depends on what do you consider as "living well"... But thinking like that will make our discussion much wider and more spiritual... | Yes, and theoretical too because I am another one here who is surely not in the 200k range...
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He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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08-09-2006, 11:51 AM
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#45 | | Senior Member
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Country: | See my flag, hehehehe. | |
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