 | CNN Brings Comfort and Aid to the Enemy| Politics Discuss CNN Brings Comfort and Aid to the Enemy in the Current forums; Very good ndicki. You've easily extended this thread for days from your post alone.... |
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10-30-2006, 11:46 AM
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#76 | | aka Dickcheese
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Washington State
Posts: 11,441
Country:  | Very good ndicki. You've easily extended this thread for days from your post alone. 
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10-30-2006, 01:23 PM
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#77 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,268
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Originally Posted by plan_D   You're right, the Royal Marines are used as Marines in Great Britain. They've naval troops which are highly skilled in combat. The USMC is basically an army in itself. Britain has each service for it's own jobs, the RAF has the aircraft, the navy has the ships and the army has the grunts!
Best unit in the world is obviously Saddams special guard...obviously... | Except we also have 3 active divs and 1 reserve of Infantry marines. The USMC has evolved into an expeditionary force, hence our capabilities and flexibility, including mech, armor, etc. as stated before. Marine air support is better able to provide certain types of air support being organic - for example CAS. Your marines are a great force - but do not nearly have our capabilities as an organization. There are disadvantages with having completely separate services. US Army sure loves having its own Helos as well - just like marines love marine air. Oh - and US Marines are also "highly skilled in combat." We just have many other capabilities as well - and are not basically an army"
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10-30-2006, 01:33 PM
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#78 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 777
Country:  | Bear in mind though that you have a population that must be about 230 million more than ours, and that generates defence spending! So if our lot are not a self-contained mini-armed forces, there is a reason. It is not economically valid to have two different forces operating the same machinery; also if you are honest with yourself, you have to admit that the USN lends you its aircraft, training facilities, crews, etc. While they may call themselves Marines, and wear (very soldierly, sober and convincing) 'green' uniforms, they are in fact part of the US Navy. If you do not agree, please tell me who chooses what aircraft types you get, and why you do not have access to types not used by the Navy.
That is not intended to be insulting, so please don't take it amiss - I'm just trying to bring a little objectivity into the discussion!
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10-30-2006, 01:36 PM
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#79 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,268
Country: | Ndicki - seriously how much intimate knowledge of the USMC do you have? You speak like are a US Marine. Are you in that strong of a position to knock them. Besides - Marine infantry training emphasizes leg infantry - not mech or motor. Your opinion's your perogative. I forgot brits are the best - always were and always will be. We're just farmers with pitchforks in the colonies over here.
Also, there are other units of Marine SOC that perform missions more in line w/ "commando" in addition to Force Recon and division recon. We're actually a Marine Corps - not a couple battalions.
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If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes, they will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines | |
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10-30-2006, 01:41 PM
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#80 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 777
Country: | To be honest, most of my person-to-person contact with the USMC has been in bars... But you do get an impression nonetheless! I've had a lot more contact with the RMs, essentially at CTC Lympstone and in the surrounding area. I have to admit though that if I had to have Allied troops next to me, the USMC would suit me better than most. Let's be honest, between most NATO armies, if not all...
The point about my comment about the RMs is that they are a small, specific-use force which can not really be compared to the USMC as a whole. There are, as you say, units within the USMC which do do the same styles of job.
Me? Speak like a US Marine?
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Last edited by ndicki : 10-30-2006 at 01:43 PM.
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10-30-2006, 01:46 PM
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#81 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,268
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Originally Posted by ndicki Bear in mind though that you have a population that must be about 230 million more than ours, and that generates defence spending! So if our lot are not a self-contained mini-armed forces, there is a reason. It is not economically valid to have two different forces operating the same machinery; also if you are honest with yourself, you have to admit that the USN lends you its aircraft, training facilities, crews, etc. While they may call themselves Marines, and wear (very soldierly, sober and convincing) 'green' uniforms, they are in fact part of the US Navy. If you do not agree, please tell me who chooses what aircraft types you get, and why you do not have access to types not used by the Navy.
That is not intended to be insulting, so please don't take it amiss - I'm just trying to bring a little objectivity into the discussion! | I can see this thread turning slightly heated. Anyway - here's how it works. The US gov't has the Dept of Army, Dept of Navy, and Dept of Air Force. Under the Dept of Navy you have the US Navy and the US Marine Corps. Two completely seperate entities - under the Secretary of the Navy. This may soon change as there's political pressure to politcally sever the marines from the Dept of Navy.
No Marine is part of the US Navy. That's just incorrect. I'm a US Marine - a 1stLt. Went through infantry training for 9 mos, now in flight school. Sailors and Marines are completely serparate. Marines borrow Navy flight school - although we sometimes borrow US Air Force flight schools too. Marine aircraft are completely independent of US Navy aircraft. We don't have many types in common actually.
Marines operate
AV-8B, F/A-18 C/D, EA-6B, AH-1W, UH-1N, CH-46E, CH-53 D/E, MV-22 (which is just got assigned to) and C-130s. All flown by Marines that went through infantry training then got assigned to flight school. Definitely not sailors wearing green.
Navy operates F/A-18E/F, E-2s, P-3s, SH-60s, CH-53s, I believe they have EA-6s too, and others that I can't think of.
Marines have their own budget from the Dept of the Navy and select which aircraft they will procure, just as the US Navy does the same, and the US Air Force, etc.
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If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes, they will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines | |
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10-30-2006, 01:59 PM
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#82 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,527
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by ndicki Best all round capacity (if given the right kit, which is rare) - British Forces. | I agree that the British forces are on par with the best in the world but as you said given the right kit (which from working with British troops in Kosovo and Iraq is not the case), there are outclassed in that sense. Training they are second to none however... Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki BTW, I don't agree that the USMC is up to the same standard across the board as British Line Infantry, unless they have got significantly better. Seemed to me that the average man lacked initiative and would perform poorly if leaderless. I may be wrong, and that may have changed. Poor foot patrolling and individual fieldcraft skills, probably caused by over-dependence on transport and APCs/MICVs/etc - talked about this before. A good "Falklands" or "Bush" soldier can easily convert to mech in a day or two (Not talking about drivers, gunners or vehicle commanders here), while a mech soldier finds it hard to adapt to carting 50+ Kilos of sh*t around in pelting rain over sodden marshland, or the tropical equivalent. | I disagree with you, based off of what mkloby said above. The USMC is a highly mobile exbeditionary force that can carry a fight and sustain it any where in the world and fight anyone to the bare bone and come out victorious. They as the British Army are second to no one in training and there leadership is excellent from the junior enlisted, to the NCO to the officers themselves. Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki Royal Marines, man-for-man, cannot be compared to the USMC, as the selection and training are far more rigourous, and the mission is not really the same. RMs are Commandos, not just Marine Infantry. | The same can be said of the USMC today just on a larger scale. The USMC has evolved from the "Marine Infantry" like they were in WW2. Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki US Armour best? Question of volume, not of ability. | Disagree no better tactics are used than my the US Armoured Cav in conjunciton with Air Cav. That alone makes it the biggest punch in a conventional warfare that this world has. Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki Same goes for Air Assault, which is not really considered as a speciality round here. | Disagree the 101st Airborne is the finest Air Assault unit in the world enhanced by the capabilities of litterally the UH-60 Blackhawk and the Chinook helicopter which are without a dout the best in the catagory. The 101st is considered an elite unit of action and they are second to no one. Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki Brit paras are easily more dangerous than their American counterparts, man-for-man. | I disagree. While the the Brit Paras that I have worked with were easily just as good as the 82nd Airborne and the 173rd Airborne, the 82nd and the 173rd are better equipped and due to having dedicated Airforce Units stationed with them are on call 24 hours a day and can be anywhere within hours int he world. They too are considered an elite unit of action and there trainign is second to no one as well. Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki Navy SEALS come second to SBS, easily. | I think that can be argued... Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki The RAF would not agree - do not forget than roles were distributed through NATO, and the RAF has proven often enough that for its primary NATO role, ground attack, it can wallop the Yanks any day. Red Flag, et al. | No one has the capability of the US Airforce. The USAF is backed with the largest and most capable fighter fleet with the F-15, F-16, and F-22. There is not a country out there with aircraft that are as capable as those 3 aircraft combined. The USAF also has the best strategic bombing force on the planet with the B-1, B-2, B-52 and much more... The Strategic Lift Command is also the most capable with hundreds of C-130s, C-5s, C-141s, and now the C-17.
There simply is not a hands down more capable Aiforce in the world. It can not be argued at all.
As for walloping the Yanks, I ask you with what aircraft? The Tornado? I laugh at that. Quote: |
Originally Posted by ndicki US Navy - Volume and budget. | Lets see I will leave it at this: 282 ships, 4000+ Aircraft, 13 Carriers. Eneogh said.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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10-30-2006, 02:06 PM
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#83 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,527
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Originally Posted by mkloby I can see this thread turning slightly heated. Anyway - here's how it works. The US gov't has the Dept of Army, Dept of Navy, and Dept of Air Force. Under the Dept of Navy you have the US Navy and the US Marine Corps. Two completely seperate entities - under the Secretary of the Navy. This may soon change as there's political pressure to politcally sever the marines from the Dept of Navy.
No Marine is part of the US Navy. That's just incorrect. I'm a US Marine - a 1stLt. Went through infantry training for 9 mos, now in flight school. Sailors and Marines are completely serparate. Marines borrow Navy flight school - although we sometimes borrow US Air Force flight schools too. Marine aircraft are completely independent of US Navy aircraft. We don't have many types in common actually.
Marines operate
AV-8B, F/A-18 C/D, EA-6B, AH-1W, UH-1N, CH-46E, CH-53 D/E, MV-22 (which is just got assigned to) and C-130s. All flown by Marines that went through infantry training then got assigned to flight school. Definitely not sailors wearing green.
Navy operates F/A-18E/F, E-2s, P-3s, SH-60s, CH-53s, I believe they have EA-6s too, and others that I can't think of.
Marines have their own budget from the Dept of the Navy and select which aircraft they will procure, just as the US Navy does the same, and the US Air Force, etc. | Well said! Damn I never thought I would ever agree with a Marine! 
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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10-30-2006, 02:07 PM
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#84 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,527
Country: | ndicki this is not the World and the Military that you used to be a part of. It has changed...
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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10-30-2006, 02:09 PM
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#85 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,268
Country: | Well said Adler. As I said before, it's going to come down the chest thumping. I'll say this, I'd rather have the Brits with us than any other single nation. Unless maybe China, with each US infantryman having a platoon of Chinese recruits to protect him...
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If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes, they will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines | |
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10-30-2006, 02:10 PM
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#86 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 777
Country: | Like I said, most of the points where US Forces score higher than ours can be put down to the higher budget. But I was very touched by some of the nice things you said about our lot! The 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment (2 PARA) The 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment (3 PARA)
And I have just discovered with horror that we've just been merged again. Before long, the British Army will have one battalion, called 1Bn, The Infantry.
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10-30-2006, 03:18 PM
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#87 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
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Originally Posted by mkloby Well said Adler. As I said before, it's going to come down the chest thumping. I'll say this, I'd rather have the Brits with us than any other single nation. Unless maybe China, with each US infantryman having a platoon of Chinese recruits to protect him... | I have allways been fond of the USMC. At one point I wanted to go in the USMC rather than the US Army but I decided to follow in my family tradition. My German Grandfather was in the Wehrmacht in WW2, my American Grandfather was in the US Army in WW2, Korea, and Nam and my Dad was in the US Army and in Desert Storm.
Besides the USMC does not have Blackhawks!
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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10-30-2006, 03:34 PM
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#88 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,268
Country: | I have family roots in army, army air force, and marines - actually almost entered army reserves before finishing school, but then decided to finish school and throw away all that education on the USMC
Blackhawks are sweet. I'm hoping the MV-22 is going to be a nice bird. I'll be flying them soon enough. I just hope they put some guns on the thing. I don't like the idea of a hot LZ w/ no armament - not even machine guns. I would think that a turret mounted 20mm up from could work - kind of like the installation in the AH-1. That would allow a good 90* to each side of coverage, plus maybe a ramp gun.
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If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes, they will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines | |
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10-30-2006, 04:00 PM
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#89 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,527
Country: | I believe on the actuall service varients they are going to have a mini gun or chain gun mounted to the nose in a automated turret, like on the Cobra. Atleast I have seen concepts with it installed.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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10-30-2006, 04:37 PM
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#90 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,874
Country:  | I can't remember who said it but the ideal military would have German officers Brit soldiers and American equipment and as for having troops on your flank Aussie, Kiwi or Canadian are not bad choices maybe not the standard of equipment but they know how to use what they have
If any nations soldier thinks he's not better then the other guy your hurting | |
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