Global Warming: The New Religion

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by Oreo

I said at the beginning of my post that I don't expect anyone to believe it just because I say so. Unlike some people, I'm not offended when people don't believe me. I also acknowledge I have no proof for most of what I said. I'm not talking about proof, only the best thing I can conjecture from the facts around me.

I'm not talking about provable facts. I'm talking about FAITH. Faith is not fact. Faith is believing something when you can not use math or science to prove you are right.

It also involves figuring things out based on what you believe and the few things you do know. But to bypass most of the faith issue in my lengthy post (see several spots back), I do ask you this one thing based on fact and science--

Has the earth warmed up more or less continually since the big ice age, or has it not? Did we cause that warming or did we not? Did the earth survive the ice age, or did it not? Did life on earth survive the ice age by adapting or adjusting to the changes in climate, or did it not? And what makes you think the earth, and life on it, would not survive the temperature being raised another 10 degrees celsius over the next 1,000 years?

Earth will be fine - mankind will not. Global warming is not belief - it is science. No science is certain - but our best choice has always been and will always be to follow the majority.

P.S. If you believe that the earth was created 8000 years ago - how can there then have been an iceage (and where do those dinosaur bones come from?).

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Sorry to say Oreo, but without "scientific" fact on what you propose, that just didn't happen. Don't you know about the Big Bang...or is it Cyclic? or.....(looking for phone number of Stephen Hawking).

Also, NJaco, regarding the big bang, of course I know about it-- that is to say, I know what people have said about it. A better question to ask me might have been, "With all the people who believe in the hypothesis of a "Big Bang", why do you not believe in it-- or do you?"

So, do I believe in a Big Bang? Yes, No, and Yes.

Firstly, and this is just to be cute, but it is what I believe: there was a big bang: God spoke, and "bang", there it all was.

OK, funny semantics, puns, and cliches notwithstanding, do I believe the universe began with a so called Big Bang of all the matter in existence going "bang" and exploding outwards? No. That is not how it all began, according to my belief system. In order for me to believe how that happened, I would first have to answer the question, where did all that matter come from? Some would say, from an earlier big bang. Well, what happened before THAT big bang? Go a trillion big bangs into the past, and you still have to answer the question, where did that matter come from?

It takes FAITH to believe that matter, energy, or anything else-- even measurable space or time-- could have always existed. It also takes FAITH to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-caring, all-sufficient, and all-present God exists and has existed for all of eternity past. Which one requires more faith to believe? You tell me.

OK, I also said I do believe in the Big Bang as well as not believing in it. How can that be? This way. . . .

I believe that God created the earth and the universe 6-8000 years ago. When he did so, He created a universe that APPEARED to have age. When he created trees, for instance, no doubt He created some tall mature trees, that were 50 or 100 feet tall. Had you cut down one of those trees on the day they were created, you would have seen many many growth rings in the wood. But how is that possible? Trees only obtain growth rings with the passing of time! So the tree, a day old, would have appeared to be, say, 100 years old. I believe God built the universe to appear AGED already.

Thus, he would have made stars and galaxies that appeared to be, oh, say, billions of years old. God also would have created light IN TRANSIT from these stars and galaxies, such that all were visible from earth immediately after they were created. Take a telescope today and observe the distant stars and galaxies out there-- more than 8,000 light years away-- the light you are seeing today was actually created OUT IN SPACE, not at the stars, on the 4th day of creation.

So, I believe, about 6-8,000 years ago, God created a universe that appeared to be aged many billions of years. If you follow the correlated projections backward through this "pre-creation" scenario God put us in the middle of, eventually you get back to a hypothetical "Big Bang" that never actually happened. Just as the original created trees never grew those original growth rings, the big bang never banged.

Suppose there was a God like the one I described. Suppose He decided to create matter, energy, space, and time out of nothing. Suppose He decided to create a lesser being, who was self-conscious and self-aware, with whom to share His thoughts and emotions. If such a thing were to take place, we would probably have a record of it today, wouldn't we? Oh, that's right, we do.

Again, don't believe any of that because I say so. Others have said it long before me. You can choose to believe the system you were taught in school, or you can choose to look for more evidence. We have a free choice to believe or not believe anything. Exercise your choice wisely.

[Oreo]

And I still like you even though you don't agree with me. Anybody, that is. I'm not mean and grouchy. I don't bite.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

As long as the US is projecting its power in the whole world and has a very interventionist policy without cooperation with the rest of the western world - the fingers will keep pointing.

Whether or not you like it you are a part of this world and your actions will have consequences - some fair, some unfair. The help that the US provides is always welcomed and much appreciated. You are not the only nation that provides help and is then critizised one week later. People remember the wrongs longer than they remember the rights - a sad fact of human nature.

For a state actively engaged in regime change telling the rest of the world to mind its own business is hypocritical to say the least. And when it comes to Global Warming: Keyword: GLOBAL.

My point is this (and now at this point in time, I am not talking about governments, I am talking about individual people): They have no problem telling the US to mind its own business stay out of theirs (unless they want or need something), but they do not practice what they preach.

They are the first to stick there noses in American politics and way of life. It goes both ways. If you dont like the Americans doing it, then do it to the them either.

Just as I get pissed off at my fellow Americans trashing other countries, it pisses me off to see people from other nations doing the same thing. They are no better and it proves my point, evertime they open their mouths.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

My point is this (and now at this point in time, I am not talking about governments, I am talking about individual people): They have no problem telling the US to mind its own business stay out of theirs (unless they want or need something), but they do not practice what they preach.

They are the first to stick there noses in American politics and way of life. It goes both ways. If you dont like the Americans doing it, then do it to the them either.

Just as I get pissed off at my fellow Americans trashing other countries, it pisses me off to see people from other nations doing the same thing. They are no better and it proves my point, evertime they open their mouths.

Partially agree - but what good will it do to descend to other peoples level - see Ghandi quote. However I can understand your frustration with people that throw rocks while living in glasshouses. Whenever I get pissed when - say - muslim countries that recieves my country's help in every concievable way suddenly burn of our embassies because of a cartoon. I find myself tempted to say f 'em - but I don't. I take pride in having the moral high ground and I refuse to descend to their level - then they win.

P.S. To my recolection I have not trashed the US - I have only pointed out my disagreeances with past and present policies.

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Earth will be fine - mankind will not. Global warming is not belief - it is science. No science is certain - but our best choice has always been and will always be to follow the majority.

P.S. If you believe that the earth was created 8000 years ago - how can there then have been an iceage (and where do those dinosaur bones come from?).

Excellent questions, my firend, and I don't blame you for asking them.

As for the ice age, as I said before, it may have been as a result of the world wide flood, which happened about 5-6,000 years ago, OR a result of a variation in the sun's temperature. Another possibility is a large volcano errupting and spewing massive amounts of ash and (gasp!) Co2 into the atmosphere, preventing the sun's rays from penetrating as much. We have seen this happen on a smaller scale within recorded history.

As for the dinosaur bones, the came from dinosaurs. God created the dinosaurs on day 6 along with all the other land animals. Sea dinosaurs, and possibly flying reptiles, were created on day 5 with other sea creatures and birds. The dinosaurs seem to have been well-suited to a lush tropical climate. The entire globe was once, more or less, such a place, before the great worldwide flood.

When God sent the flood, and Noah took the animals on the ark, there was ample room for him to have taken every single species of land animal and bird known to exist today, or to have existed in the past from fossil records, based on what we know from the biblical dimensions of the ark. there would also have been plenty of room to carry enough animal food and also fresh water as well to last them more time than they were actually on the ark (2-3 months).

Noah did not have to go around collecting animals. God directed mating pairs of every species to the ark. No doubt they were not all the largest of each species, but young, partially grown examples. Since God is all-powerful, He can control animals' behavior. He sent them there, and caused them to live peaceably for the entire time they were cooped up together. No doubt all the dinosaur species were represented.

When the flood came, all the people and animals on earth who were not in the ark perished in the flood waters. Their bodies were buried under multiple levels of mud and silt. The mud and silt compressed and compacted itself from its sheer weight, and within a relatively short amount of time, it settled into sandstone and other types of sedimentary rock. The animal bodies were compressed until all that remained was skeleton. The skeletons slowly rotted away or were dissolved, and were replaced by sedimentary rock which leached down into the cavities. This process DOES NOT TAKE VERY LONG TO OCCUR. In Australia, a gold miner's hat was completely fossilized in a mine in less than 100 years.

The multiple layers of wet, uncured sedimentation can easily be recreated today under laboratory conditions, and recur in nature during localized flooding. If you go to places where there are many fossils, you can often find large animals, such as whales, high up on mountain tops, and sticking up through several rock layers. There are also many places where there are petrified trees stuck through multiple sedimentary layers. Tell me something-- if each one of these rock layers took "a million years or more" to harden, then why did the trees not rot after several hundred years of standing there waiting for more rock layers to develop?

That is one reason I believe in thousands of years, not millions of years. Plus, there is a book written in antiquity that explains the history of what happened, wheras the "millions of years" people didn't come along until the last couple centuries. Now they have brain-washed a majority of the earth's population into believing junk science-- the hypothesis of evolution and eons of time-- unproven and unprovable.

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Whenever I get pissed when - say - muslim countries that recieves my country's help in every concievable way suddenly burn of our embassies because of a cartoon. I find myself tempted to say f 'em - but I don't. I take pride in having the moral high ground and I refuse to descend to their level - then they win.

Absolutely agree with your assessment. I wonder if sometimes we must descend ALMOST to their level in order to blow them off the face of the earth before they do the same to us. Preserve those who prefer peace and freedom. Preserve through might, power, and if necessary, war. Yes, I said war.

[Njaco]

Oreo, it was said in jest as some want to believe in science as god.

I take pride in having the moral high ground and I refuse to descend to their level - then they win.

Dan, do you think they even care? So you take the high ground and they continue to murder and bomb and blow up embassies and kill women and innocents. There are no morals with certain factions that are causing trouble in the world. They are ruthless. You cannot accept them as another human, as just another schoolyard bully that you can take the high ground of. They simply don't care. And that is the trap that the US and other countries have forgotten or failed to recognize. Trying to fight a Western style war against heathen style guerillas.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Partially agree - but what good will it do to descend to other peoples level - see Ghandi quote. However I can understand your frustration with people that throw rocks while living in glasshouses. Whenever I get pissed when - say - muslim countries that recieves my country's help in every concievable way suddenly burn of our embassies because of a cartoon. I find myself tempted to say f 'em - but I don't. I take pride in having the moral high ground and I refuse to descend to their level - then they win.

I actually agree with you. I just get frustrated sometimes, and then I vent.

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

P.S. To my recolection I have not trashed the US - I have only pointed out my disagreeances with past and present policies.

My venting posts were not directed at any individual person here (despite what Jug think). My remarks only spured because of what pb said and sort of led from there.

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Oreo, it was said in jest as some want to believe in science as god.

Ah, I see! Yes, good point. EVERYONE has a god. Who or what is yours?

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Dan, do you think they even care? So you take the high ground and they continue to murder and bomb and blow up embassies and kill women and innocents. There are no morals with certain factions that are causing trouble in the world. They are ruthless. You cannot accept them as another human, as just another schoolyard bully that you can take the high ground of. They simply don't care. And that is the trap that the US and other countries have forgotten or failed to recognize. Trying to fight a Western style war against heathen style guerillas.

Yes they do - and they celebrate everytime we degrade ourselves to their level. Not to speak of all the fresh recruits it gets them. Most of them are beyond human reason - but they are still human none the less and are thus entitled to the basic human rights. And the trap that western contries have failed to see and recognize (and for god knows which time) is that natively backed guerillas cannot be defeated by military force. And they will continue to blow up schools regardless of how many we torture - but we will be stuck in a place that is hard to explain to the very people we are trying to win over.

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Yes they do - and they celebrate everytime we degrade ourselves to their level. Not to speak of all the fresh recruits it gets them. Most of them are beyond human reason - but they are still human none the less and are thus entitled to the basic human rights. And the trap that western contries have failed to see and recognize (and for god knows which time) is that natively backed guerillas cannot be defeated by military force. And they will continue to blow up schools regardless of how many we torture - but we will be stuck in a place that is hard to explain to the very people we are trying to win over.

This sounds like the speech of one who has given up all hope. I hope that is not the case, M8.

[JugBR]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

As long as the US is projecting its power in the whole world and has a very interventionist policy without cooperation with the rest of the western world - the fingers will keep pointing.

Whether or not you like it you are a part of this world and your actions will have consequences - some fair, some unfair. The help that the US provides is always welcomed and much appreciated. You are not the only nation that provides help and is then critizised one week later. People remember the wrongs longer than they remember the rights - a sad fact of human nature.

For a state actively engaged in regime change telling the rest of the world to mind its own business is hypocritical to say the least. And when it comes to Global Warming: Keyword: GLOBAL.

once again, daniel shows how to defend a good point.

---------------------------------------------------

sorry herr adler, i wont post bs here anymore, read daniel is just finest than write bs.

but thanx for the "rude" mate ! i like been rude ! rude boy ! yes i am ! i hope so...



makes me remember an old good song...

YouTube - A Message To You Rudy

nice song, the good old times that i never saw !

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by Oreo

Excellent questions, my firend, and I don't blame you for asking them.

As for the ice age, as I said before, it may have been as a result of the world wide flood, which happened about 5-6,000 years ago, OR a result of a variation in the sun's temperature. Another possibility is a large volcano errupting and spewing massive amounts of ash and (gasp!) Co2 into the atmosphere, preventing the sun's rays from penetrating as much. We have seen this happen on a smaller scale within recorded history.

As for the dinosaur bones, the came from dinosaurs. God created the dinosaurs on day 6 along with all the other land animals. Sea dinosaurs, and possibly flying reptiles, were created on day 5 with other sea creatures and birds. The dinosaurs seem to have been well-suited to a lush tropical climate. The entire globe was once, more or less, such a place, before the great worldwide flood.

When God sent the flood, and Noah took the animals on the ark, there was ample room for him to have taken every single species of land animal and bird known to exist today, or to have existed in the past from fossil records, based on what we know from the biblical dimensions of the ark. there would also have been plenty of room to carry enough animal food and also fresh water as well to last them more time than they were actually on the ark (2-3 months).

Noah did not have to go around collecting animals. God directed mating pairs of every species to the ark. No doubt they were not all the largest of each species, but young, partially grown examples. Since God is all-powerful, He can control animals' behavior. He sent them there, and caused them to live peaceably for the entire time they were cooped up together. No doubt all the dinosaur species were represented.

When the flood came, all the people and animals on earth who were not in the ark perished in the flood waters. Their bodies were buried under multiple levels of mud and silt. The mud and silt compressed and compacted itself from its sheer weight, and within a relatively short amount of time, it settled into sandstone and other types of sedimentary rock. The animal bodies were compressed until all that remained was skeleton. The skeletons slowly rotted away or were dissolved, and were replaced by sedimentary rock which leached down into the cavities. This process DOES NOT TAKE VERY LONG TO OCCUR. In Australia, a gold miner's hat was completely fossilized in a mine in less than 100 years.

The multiple layers of wet, uncured sedimentation can easily be recreated today under laboratory conditions, and recur in nature during localized flooding. If you go to places where there are many fossils, you can often find large animals, such as whales, high up on mountain tops, and sticking up through several rock layers. There are also many places where there are petrified trees stuck through multiple sedimentary layers. Tell me something-- if each one of these rock layers took "a million years or more" to harden, then why did the trees not rot after several hundred years of standing there waiting for more rock layers to develop?

That is one reason I believe in thousands of years, not millions of years. Plus, there is a book written in antiquity that explains the history of what happened, wheras the "millions of years" people didn't come along until the last couple centuries. Now they have brain-washed a majority of the earth's population into believing junk science-- the hypothesis of evolution and eons of time-- unproven and unprovable.

At the heart of evolution is the basic fact that life has existed for billions of years and has changed over time. Overwhelming evidence supports this. Scientists continue to argue about details of evolution, but the question of whether life has a long history or not was answered in the affirmative at least two centuries ago. The history of living things is documented through multiple lines of evidence that converge to tell the story of life through time.

I could make a huge post of evidence and explaining - but I wont. I would be wasting my time I know. Every single point that science makes to disprove creationism can always easily be swept aside by "god did that because he is all powerfull". But then why did he make all those mistakes? "to test our faith".
And those two answers end any discussion.


But for people who are interested in evolution - this series is a good start.


1.
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Ctl9...
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVaCmA...
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6_Ktv...
5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNxXlq...
6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X50lH...
7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIzaeI...
8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BJa7W...
9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CCapu...
10: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp7b9E...
11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzTlZo...
12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjXYZd...
13: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ske9pw...
14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnJ8y...
15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkcC8F...
16: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XDn5S...
17: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KD3XY...
18: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZLOqJ...
19: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVz6se...
20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2BVfP...
21: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5PNzx...
22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrlYz0...
23: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQbv6E...
24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKhG24...

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by Oreo

This sounds like the speech of one who has given up all hope. I hope that is not the case, M8.

Oh no - never do I loose hope.

But often do I "loose hope" in strategies that do not work, because they do not address the real problem.