Global Warming: The New Religion

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

At the heart of evolution is the basic fact that life has existed for billions of years and has changed over time. Overwhelming evidence supports this. Scientists continue to argue about details of evolution, but the question of whether life has a long history or not was answered in the affirmative at least two centuries ago. The history of living things is documented through multiple lines of evidence that converge to tell the story of life through time.

I could make a huge post of evidence and explaining - but I wont. I would be wasting my time I know. Every single point that science makes to disprove creationism can always easily be swept aside by "god did that because he is all powerfull". But then why did he make all those mistakes? "to test our faith".
And those two answers end any discussion.

God has never yet made a mistake. People make mistakes.

You are free to believe as you choose. There is no proof of God. There is no proof of evolution. Believe as you choose.

[tpikdave]

Originally Posted by Oreo

This sounds like the speech of one who has given up all hope. I hope that is not the case, M8.

sorry herr adler, i wont post bs here anymore, read daniel is just finest than write bs.

but thanx for the "rude" mate ! i like been rude ! rude boy ! yes i am ! i hope so...

Not surprising. A little intellect is enough to scare away the usual kiddy troll.


There is evil in this world, true evil. It is easy to converse about "bad things" and "bad people or politicians" but not so after you have encountered true evil face to face. Usually this comes with age and experience. When it is claimed by someone young, proof must be required.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by JugBR

once again, daniel shows how to defend a good point.

Much better than you, and far less insulting. Since you chose not to respond to my PM...

Originally Posted by JugBR

but thanx for the "rude" mate ! i like been rude ! rude boy ! yes i am ! i hope so...

If thats the case, then you and me will never get along. Tread lightly...

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Oreo

You are free to believe as you choose. There is no proof of God. There is no proof of evolution. Believe as you choose.

You're sure about both statements? There's a much prove,if you want to see it and believe it, of evolution and if you want to see it and believe it, the same can counts for the existence of God. BTW evolution and religion don't need to be in contradiction. The bible never told how God made the world
I believe the 8000 years was just a way of saying it had been a long time and I don't take it literally.

[Njaco]

But often do I "loose hope" in strategies that do not work, because they do not address the real problem.

Well, to bring this back on topic - that is the crux of the matter: What is the 'real' problem? Is it Man causing GW? Is it natural? Can we change, adjust or even stop GW? Can Man bend Mother Nature to his will?

Those are all questions I don't think science can accurately answer and until they do I don't want the government involved because ultimately it means the citizen loses. Either through GW or gov intrusion.

[Marcel]

Okay, my opinion as a "scientist":
- Can greenhouse effect be real?
Yes, definitely. Look at our nearest neighbour in space, Venus and you see what greenhouse effect is.

- Is the climate change caused by greenhouse effect and caused by humans?
Hard to prove, but consider the following facts:
- Greenhouse effect is caused by huge amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere
- Never in history has so much CO2 been blown into the atmosphere as in the last 100 years
- Temperature has been rising very fast in the last few years (average temperature in the Netherlands increased 1.5°C since 50 years)

1+1 is still 2. This is what we strong clues to the truth, but not proved.

If it's true, can we do anything about it? No as there are still governments who can't think further than the benefits of their own individual self and not globally. I'm thinking of China etc. but also in lesser degree of the US and some European countries. Furthermore, with the current energy consumption, also very depending on organic fuel, it will be very hard to change. And aren't we too late already?

It's a gamble and I think with gambling you should always look at the highest risk. If measurements are taken falsely and the hypothesis is not true, some countries will have collapsing economies. If it is true however and no measurements are taken, we all loose, making the world uninhabitable. That's quite a gamble.

And we can start arguing about "They don't, so we can't..." etc. But we have a saying here in the Netherlands: "He who wants to better the world, should better start with himself".

[renrich]

I have a question. Quite a few posts back, number 738, Javlin wrote a post about this GW question that sounded very informed to me. It also seemed to agree with other information I have read elsewhere that strongly questions the role that "green house gasses" may play in climate change. Did anyone else read that post? It is curious to me that, as far as I know, no one tried to debunk that post. Also, I keep reading that global temperatures have actually been decreasing the last ten years. I know this does not prove anything but we just had the coldest and snowiest winter in many years here in Colorado. How does all this mesh with the GW theory?

[Marcel]

Didn't read that one ren, but just did. I'll have to read some to confirm his post, so I'll answer that later. But I hope he's right. Yesterday I read the info from the KNMI (royal dutch meteorological institute) where statistics say the average temperature here in the Netherlands has risen with 1.5°C the last 50 years. It also warned the Northpole would be free of ice this year or the next, which is also not in agreement with the theory that the temperature is not rising.
http://www.knmi.nl/VinkCMS/news_detail.jsp?id=42910

KNMI: Wordt de Noordpool dit jaar ijsvrij? (sorry, no English version)

NSIDC:
New study finds permafrost threatened by rapid sea ice melt.

And from the USEPA:


Nice read on the subject, also form USEPA (US environment protction agency):

What's Known

Scientists know with virtual certainty that:

* Human activities are changing the composition of Earth's atmosphere. Increasing levels of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere since pre-industrial times are well-documented and understood.
* The atmospheric buildup of CO2 and other greenhouse gases is largely the result of human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels.
* An “unequivocal” warming trend of about 1.0 to 1.7°F occurred from 1906-2005. Warming occurred in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, and over the oceans (IPCC, 2007).
* The major greenhouse gases emitted by human activities remain in the atmosphere for periods ranging from decades to centuries. It is therefore virtually certain that atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases will continue to rise over the next few decades.
* Increasing greenhouse gas concentrations tend to warm the planet.


What's Very Likely?

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has stated "Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations" (IPCC, 2007). In short, a growing number of scientific analyses indicate, but cannot prove, that rising levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are contributing to climate change (as theory predicts). In the coming decades, scientists anticipate that as atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases continue to rise, average global temperatures and sea levels will continue to rise as a result and precipitation patterns will change.

State of Knowledge | Science | Climate Change | U.S. EPA

[renrich]

So many of these GW statements come from government sources like the EPA. I have a hard time trusting them so usually put them in my "Chicken Licken" file. Anyway, there are sure a lot of conflicting "experts" saying things.

[Marcel]

Dunno Renrich, most scientific institutes are usually are government. Why wouldn't you trust these institutes?
But we here in Holland can surely confirm that the climate in this country is warming. We have more rainfall, heavier storms and higher temperatures than 20 years ago, to a degree that summer seems to be changed to the months March and April instead of July and August and we never see ice on the canals in winter any more. When I was I child we could ice-skate every winter, now it has been about 7 years since I was able to skate on the canals (apart from one day last year)

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Marcel

Dunno Renrich, most scientific institutes are usually are government. Why wouldn't you trust these institutes?

Because in this country, we have long since learned

NEVER

to trust our government, or any other on earth.

That's why.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Oreo

Because in this country, we have long since learned

NEVER

to trust our government, or any other on earth.

That's why.

That's sad, I'm sorry for you.

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Marcel

That's sad, I'm sorry for you.

Please don't be. I'm not. Our founding fathers, in the late 1700's, trusted neither the government they separated from, nor the one they formed, nor yet themselves or each other. They recognized that mankind can never or should never truly trust mankind. Mankind is not trustworthy. They knew only God is trustworthy, for He is the one who has a nature of total truth and purity.

[Njaco]

I would say he has a better handle on this GW and will know what to do. Let me keep my money so I can go to Disneyworld!!

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Oreo

Please don't be. I'm not. Our founding fathers, in the late 1700's, trusted neither the government they separated from, nor the one they formed, nor yet themselves or each other. They recognized that mankind can never or should never truly trust mankind. Mankind is not trustworthy. They knew only God is trustworthy, for He is the one who has a nature of total truth and purity.

I see you are religious. Maybe think about this: He also gave us brains to think independently, hands to do things. I don't think He would like us to just sit, doing nothing and wait for Him to fix it all.

Sorry for the bad way of expression, I'm much better at Dutch, but I hope you understand what I mean.