Global Warming: The New Religion

[tpikdave]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Where are your alternatives to help the young guy make up his mind in a rational manner ?
It's not our job as adults to impart our wisdom or lack of it in kids minds we should be showing them how to make their own decisions

Well said PB, especially about the kids. This subject has really become a political football and all our elected representatives seem to be in office just for a money and power trip. I wonder if they even discuss it as much as those on this forum do? Nothing gets done. It would be great if we set term limits on our "leaders" or at least rate them with a report card that could seriously affect their re-election.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by tpikdave

Well said PB, especially about the kids. This subject has really become a political football and all our elected representatives seem to be in office just for a money and power trip. I wonder if they even discuss it as much as those on this forum do? Nothing gets done. It would be great if we set term limits on our "leaders" or at least rate them with a report card that could seriously affect their re-election.

Quick off topic comment - but the "report card" for our leaders is their re-election bid. The system is far from perfect - but any policy that would alter the will of the people through popular election goes against what democracy is about.

[tpikdave]

Originally Posted by mkloby

Quick off topic comment - but the "report card" for our leaders is their re-election bid. The system is far from perfect - but any policy that would alter the will of the people through popular election goes against what democracy is about.

But we don't HAVE a democracy!

[Njaco]

Have to agree with mkloby, voting is the term-limit big stick. How about banning riders or ad-ons or whatever they are called to bills that are passed? Have anybody seen the sneaky way stuff is done with that? A seatbelt law comes up and attached is millions of dollars for thia and that - nothing to do with the bill. Probably what I'm really saying is curb the spending. That is what scares me the most about GW - not the CO2s or heat but what the government is gonna take.

[renrich]

PB, I was rummaging around online trying to find where the information on the cooling last year and for past ten years and found the following article, by Dennis T Avery of the Hudson Institute; "Global Temperatures Have Dropped: Have Sunspots Predicted It.... The article was on a website called, Center for Global Food Issues. To me, the article seems written with some common sense and with no agenda in mind. Wish I was proficient enough to post it on this forum but, alas, my computer skills are not up to the task.

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by Marcel

People usually believe what they want to believe, which makes the whole discussion quite difficult.

That's correct, Marcel. I personally see no reason to fear MMGW, from a scientific perspective, but I do fear the idea of MMGW from a political and cultural perspective.

The earth is warming, it has done so ever since the ice age. Perhaps the most important questions to ask are:

What was the earth like before the ice age?

Was that state of the earth's climate "normal" or an anomaly?

What caused the ice age?

Was the ice age a fluke, a variation, or a correction?

Is the earth's present climate similar to or different from that before the ice age?

What is the "ideal" climate of the earth?

And. . . . who gets to decide that?

And . . . . what makes mankind think we're so special that we are the first species to make a coordinated effort to change the climate? (assuming macroevolution is true).

And. . . . . can we change the climate even if we want to?

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Oreo

That's correct, Marcel. I personally see no reason to fear MMGW, from a scientific perspective, but I do fear the idea of MMGW from a political and cultural perspective.

The earth is warming, it has done so ever since the ice age. Perhaps the most important questions to ask are:

What was the earth like before the ice age?

Was that state of the earth's climate "normal" or an anomaly?

What caused the ice age?

Was the ice age a fluke, a variation, or a correction?

Is the earth's present climate similar to or different from that before the ice age?

What is the "ideal" climate of the earth?

And. . . . who gets to decide that?

And . . . . what makes mankind think we're so special that we are the first species to make a coordinated effort to change the climate? (assuming macroevolution is true).

And. . . . . can we change the climate even if we want to?

I wish your religion allowed the use of science , you know the stuff the lets you live til 80 ,

[Njaco]

. . . . can we change the climate even if we want to?

That is the biggest question of it all.

[Flyboy2]

what I was trying to say to Flyboy2 is don't listen to old farts like myself , maybe I can give pointers to bolster my view but they should also get opposing views and use their own smarts to determine what is right and wrong on a topic.

Don't worry I'm not listening to you that much just kidding of course.
Basically I'm just trying to hold my own in a conversation about a very difficult political issue with a bunch of educated adults and I enjoy hearing the points of people on the other side of this arguement.... i'm not THAT young though

To answer on Oreo's post i have actually looked at some world history in my research and noted that the World temperature increased right before the 1400's. What I found interesting about this is that the temperature increased way before the industrial revolution and during the temperature increase the Norse tribes were able to explore the upper America's. This got me thinking if maybe a little increase in temperature might actually be benificial to human exploration.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Flyboy2

Don't worry I'm not listening to you that much just kidding of course.
Basically I'm just trying to hold my own in a conversation about a very difficult political issue with a bunch of educated adults and I enjoy hearing the points of people on the other side of this arguement.... i'm not THAT young though

To answer on Oreo's post i have actually looked at some world history in my research and noted that the World temperature increased right before the 1400's. What I found interesting about this is that the temperature increased way before the industrial revolution and during the temperature increase the Norse tribes were able to explore the upper America's. This got me thinking if maybe a little increase in temperature might actually be benificial to human exploration.

because all the studies were based on european data the pacific was cooler , Africa was drier and the Antarctic was cooler . Warmer weather will certainly benefit Canada but then you guys down south will want our water for the Midwest and south west so that means war

[Flyboy2]

Honestly do you think that the United States would invade Canada? or that the Canadians wouldn't trade with us

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Flyboy2

Honestly do you think that the United States would invade Canada?

not really but as we speak the great lake states have told other states if they need water for industry send the industry back
Compact will keep Great Lakes water here | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press
Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said last week that he was confident that the Great Lakes Compact, designed to prevent water diversions from the lakes, would be passed by Congress, although perhaps not this year.



I hope he's right, because if Congress doesn't act quickly, we'll soon see panicked and politically powerful interests in the Southwest and Southeast do everything possible to stop the compact from passing -- once enough people in those areas grasp just how dire their straits are.

They continue to water golf courses in Las Vegas even though Lake Meade, their only water supply, has dropped 100 feet in the past 50 years, and the Colorado River, which is the source of Lake Meade, has had so much water withdrawn from it that it no longer reaches the sea.

They continue to water lawns and fill swimming pools in southern California even though Long Beach has built an experimental facility to determine if it's economically feasible to supply its needs with desalinated ocean water.

After surviving a true water crisis last year, Atlanta imposed some minimal water conservation measures. But it still is encouraging growth in a city that can't guarantee water in the future for those new residents.

And people continue to move to those states in droves.

The Great Lakes Compact would give control of the water in the lakes to the states surrounding them and prevent other states or even foreign countries from taking water out through pipelines or on ships.

The Great Lakes states sit on 20% of all the fresh surface water in the world and 95% of all the surface water in North America. But a severe water shortage has awakened Southwestern and Southeastern states' politicians to the idea of fueling their region's continued growth with water pipelines from the Great Lakes

[Oreo]

Thanks PB, for that. I was unaware of the extent of the Great Lakes situation. Since you live there, it's good that you're able to keep up on that. Yes, we are in a drought right now here in South Carolina. Thank God we got rain today, and they're calling for more this week.

I believe the biggest reason people are leaving the Great Lakes states and New England states is because of bad politics, which have caused bad policies within those states, and caused jobs to dry up. This also why industry is looking to the south, the Mississippi valley, the mountain states, the plains, and the desert southwest with more interest. These areas recently have been reducing state taxes and improving the regulatory situation to encourage businesses to thrive. The northeast and the Pacific coast have not. Therefore, we have car factories (usually of foreign name brands like Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, etc) moving into places like Kentucky, South Carolina, and Texas, and factories closing down in places like Michigan, Minnesota, and Illinois.

The more taxes and regulations the northern states apply to their industries, the more industries will leave those places. I've seen it in Maine, where I grew up, which is now like a little Michigan for joblessness, and has been that bad most of my life.

[Flyboy2]

Thanks for the info PB... I sure am glad those Southren states are getting rain now

[renrich]

I would definitely vote for invading Canada if it got warmer. They have some beautiful scenery up there, the Mounties are fun to make photos of and the girls in western Canada are really good looking! We could annex Canada to Texas, they could enjoy the fruits and worldwide reputation of being Texans, we would be the biggest state again and I would not have to leave Texas to get cool in the summer.