Global Warming: The New Religion

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Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

A question to all of you that believe man made Global climate change is a hoax:

.............................

Are there any other points? Because openminded as I am - I dont find these points very convincing...

I'm with you on this Daniel

[v2]

YouTube - Al Gore sued by over 30.000 Scientists for fraud

[Danielmellbin]

oh damn... forgot fox news on my list...

[Danielmellbin]

Here are some readings from NASA

NASA GISS: Research News: 2006 Was Earth's Fifth Warmest Year

This animation is probably the best way to see that change and anomalies are natural but 1980-now is not natural (slow loading - but give it a chance)


http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/ne...te_320x240.mpg

[Njaco]

Daniel, if I can take a crack at your list with my High School grade knowledge.

1. Scientists lie because their grants will dwindle if there is no man made GCC.

Grants were put forth as a possible motivation for scientists to agree that there is man-made GW. I won't say scientists lie, but maybe withhold a little truth here and there...."Sorry, our data hasn't been completed but we need more funding." That isn't that far-fetched. But why does everyone look at this issue as either black or white? GW is real, has been happening for millenium. Lately man-made causes have contributed to GW. In what percentage is hard to tell or agree on. That issue is so intangible I'm stumped by anyone who belives it 100%. But should we change to grass-fuel vehicles, dim-watt bulbs and pay out the nose for carbon-credits for something that nobody can gauge how much an impact we really have on it? Again, GW is real, has been happening for millenium and man-made causes have contributed to GW.

2. The media is conspiring because its against all things that are right wing.

Now there is an inconvient truth. It really hit home to me during Katrina when I saw two pics of the flooding. One of a white family, neck deep in water towing some coolers filled with stuff. Caption read something like "New Orleans residents escape floods." Second pic of a black family, neck deep in water towing some coolers filled with stuff. Caption read something like, "New Orleans residents looting businesses." The media plays games and mostly against the right-wing.

3. The climate has always changed so its just a coincidence that its doing it now.

Thats a contradiction. If it always changes, how can it be a coincidence? The only coincidence is that the government needs funding so it creates new crisis' that they have to rescue the citizens from. Same thing in the '70s with Global Cooling. All the rage, made the cover of Time, and we soon had catalytic converters and a gas crisis, TMI and searches for alternative energy sources. So I guess I can say with tongue in cheek that all the initatives against Global Cooling brought us Global Warming.

4. Where I live everything is fine.

Never said that, but I do expect severe climate changes around here from time to time. Its natural.

5. Some sort of study that shows that in some respects a recent year hasn't seen as dramatic a change as the other recent years.

You mean a scientific study? But by your assumption that can never happen because all the scientists agree on GW. Of course every night as I watch my local weather forcast, I noticed that most Record Highs and Lows are scattered through-out the last 100 years some even into the 1890s. I've always wondered that after several years of this GW crisis why those records aren't being broken more often.

6. The world economy will colapse if we try to convert away from oil quickly.

I really haven't figured out and don't understand fully how it would affect the world economy but in my little part of the world, I'm surrounded by lunatics. We have an oil crisis. Prices are skyrocketing (for whatever reason), we should do this, we should do that, yadda, yadda, yadda. But here is what we face...the lawmakers of Hope. Dems: No drilling off N.J. coast - NJ.com
Our Governor doesn't want off-shore drilling because the ugly sight of an oil rig would impact the tourism industry!!!! That is about the most stupid comment or rational I've ever heard. I'll glady pay $4.99 a gallon just to keep him in office.....NOT!

7. Al Gore and everything about him.

The point here is that Al Gore is a fraud. I can't believe in someone who says I should drive a grass guzzler while he is in a limo. I can't believe in someone who says I should walk to my next vacation spot while he flies in a jet. I can't believe in someone who says I should change light bulbs, solar panels, etc, etc, etc, while he sits comfy in one of his 8 bathroom houses getting carbon-credits from the company that he sits on the board of. As the saying goes - and it has never been truer than here - don't piss on me and tell me its raining!

8. GCC simply wont have any effect on our lives.

Who knows? But another point that is totally lost in all of this is its going to happen! Regardless of what caused it or how it comes about or when. Its called entropy. The inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. My complaint is that liberals like Al Gore couldn't care less except that he and his co-horts will save the world from what eventaully will happen.
So in addition to thanking him for the internet we can thank him and the liberals for saving the world and his next award will be an Emmy for his appearance on the TV show "Heroes".

GW is real.
It is not totally man-made.
We can reduce our contribution to GW.
I refuse to pay for voodoo science projects or taxes that the government will put on me.

oh and the Fox News comment...one of Clintons top guys (Wolfson I think) just joined Fox because as he put it, they're the most fair and balanced.

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Good bash there NJ
Still think Danials got it right

[Njaco]

Hey, I tried.

[renrich]

Njako, as usual good comments on your part. If I may add, the left is mightily frustrated because communism, marxism, socialism has been discredited by it's failures everywhere. Capitalism has been shown to offer the most people the highest standard of living. Centralised control by the government of the economy (or anything else) is inherently inefficient and wasteful(an example-FEMA) The left is the sworn enemy of capitalism. Global climate change caused by man offers the left another way to get control and perhaps discredit capitalism. That is the main reason the left has embraced GW.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by renrich

Njako, as usual good comments on your part. If I may add, the left is mightily frustrated because communism, marxism, socialism has been discredited by it's failures everywhere. Capitalism has been shown to offer the most people the highest standard of living. Centralised control by the government of the economy (or anything else) is inherently inefficient and wasteful(an example-FEMA) The left is the sworn enemy of capitalism. Global climate change caused by man offers the left another way to get control and perhaps discredit capitalism. That is the main reason the left has embraced GW.

When does anybody ever question capitalism (except for the odd hippie)? The countries with the highest livingstandards in the world are what you would call socialist (but really they are social-liberal).

Njaco -
1.
All logic implies that Mankinds is the main factor of GCC. The temperature has had its ups and downs over time. But that the changes starts being so extreme just a couple of decades after mankind starts emitting billions of tons of greenhouse gasses... Well - Im not a believer of coincidence.
2.
So generally(!!!) speaking: White people didn't flee New Orleans and black people didn't loot? The press plays it games - yes. But the "liberal media" is a convenient invention of the right wing - because how else do you explain that your views/politics often do not stand up to journalistic coverage/investigation...
3.
Typo: I meant "coincidence that its doing it more quickly now."
Never heard of a global cooling claim.... But it was in the 70's and I'm only 26 so...
4.
Nature can be cruel - but lets not make it any worse...
5.
Never said all scientists - but upwards of 90% atleast. As for records - check out the Nasa-link in my latest post. The hottest years on planet earth so far: 2005, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2006... And the whole thing is more complicated than just warming. Things will cool down some places due to eco-changes. Primary noticable feature will be and is: extreme weather.
6.
The world economy might slow down at first - but once alternate energy is made effective - then things would get back to normal. I have every trust in the human races' ingenuity to find alternatives to combustable fuels. Drilling for more oil is just postponing the inevitable - as for tourism and the effectiveness of the proposed drillling - I have no idea.
7.
My point here is that I don't caaare about Al Gore - like I've said before he's just an American politician. I'm stunned that a politician would even make such a movie (never seen it btw). I'm fine by a politician ordering such a movie to be made if he see's it as neccesary. But making it himself AND as a partisan politician. Its doomed to only convince people that are on his side - thus splitting people up even more.
8.
Aaaarrgh More Al Gore No - it doesn't have to happen - well not right now anyway - we have the power to stop it or atleast slow it down considerably (but not for long).

"Fox News the most fair and balanced" eerm... I'm speachless...

[renrich]

The left wing media in the US is not the invention of of the right, as you have stated. Many, many studies have shown that the media in the US is slanted decisively to the left. You absolutely do not know what you are talking about and that statement puts all your other statements in doubt. You may know all about what happens in Copenhagen but you are very misinformed about the US.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by renrich

The left wing media in the US is not the invention of of the right, as you have stated. Many, many studies have shown that the media in the US is slanted decisively to the left. You absolutely do not know what you are talking about and that statement puts all your other statements in doubt. You may know all about what happens in Copenhagen but you are very misinformed about the US.

so what your saying is that the polls you look at with respect to media are accurate and the polls on global warming are crap or are you just cherry picking to back up a weak argument

[Danielmellbin]

True - I do not watch american channels on a regular basis as I don't have the time (and not always the possibility). But I have seen enough of Fox news to know that when someone calls it "Fair and Balanced" - something is really wrong. All the friends I have in the US (admitedly only 4) think that Fox is a scandal - and three of them are conservatives(!). As for the rest of the media being left leaning - is it them being left leaning or have the politics moved to the right...?

[renrich]

PB I am not talking about polls as to media or GW. The people in the media have been asked and the overwhelming majority are dimocrats. People have kept track on TV and in major newspapers as to the number of favorable and the number of negative articles or reports about liberal or conservative candidates for office and the bias shows up there without question. In case you don't know, PB, many polls are taken by the media just so they can report on the poll and call it a story. As far as GW is concerned my opinion is based on what many reputable scientists have reported as well as my own experiece and common sense not on any poll. Dan, I have been around for a long time(my first presidential vote was for Eisenhower's second term) and the overall politics in this country in my lifetime has been a not too gradual turn to the left, not to the right as you have intimated(I think.) The growth of government in this country since FDR has been undoubtedly massive and IMO not in the best interests, for the most part, of the country.

[Njaco]

Well, then whats the argument when the majority of polls currently say that we should be drilling?

I didn't say Fox News was balanced....
A Clintonian at Fox - The Caucus - Politics - New York Times Blog
"I thought that Fox’s coverage during the primary was comprehensive and fair and evenhanded,” Mr. Wolfson said Monday in a telephone interview from Liverpool, England...."

I don't watch Fox News. I'm Cable challenged as I don't particularly like a monopoly - like Cable TV. So my TV news is mostly the local stations and alot of PBS/NPR (hah!!). On radio I switch from the conservative talking heads to my local NPR, such as "All Things Considered" and "Fresh Air" and "Talk of the Nation". I can judge for myself the liberal bent without the need for any polls.

All logic implies that Mankinds is the main factor of GCC. The temperature has had its ups and downs over time.

All logic? What logic? Please explain to me how man caused the Ice Age? That in itself was extreme enough to affect the globe - and it wasn't just up and down temperatures. Better yet, do you have any of the extreme weather reports for 79AD? 110AD? Because weather has only been significantly recorded for about 400 years. Beyond that its guess work from ancient reports or soil samples, etc. How can anybody say with any certainty that its all man-made?

I meant "coincidence that its doing it more quickly now."

Based on what? The last ten years? How about comparing to the last million years? Oh, can't do that.

Oh, and Global Cooling, see here...
Newsweek on the cooling world
and the best part is this...
"It may look foolish today, but in fact world temperatures had been falling since about 1940. It was around 1979 that they reversed direction and resumed the general rise that had begun in the 1880s, bringing us today back to around 1940 levels."

And scientists can never be wrong. A few months ago someone was claiming in the beginning of this thread that 100% of scientists agreed that GW was man-made. Glad to see its now down to 90%. Maybe the walls of Jericho are falling.

I can't argue you on the economy. I have no clue but...

- but once alternate energy is made effective - then things would get back to normal.

How long will that be? They say that we could be drilling offshore and have expansion of refineries in 7 to 10 years. Will we have grass guzzlers by then? And why all the focus on gasoline? Just because its getting more expensive? How about all the plastics produced from petroluem and oil? Like the stupid packaging you can't open around toothbrushes or automotive tools, etc, etc,. Not a peep about that.

we have the power to stop it or atleast slow it down considerably (but not for long).

I have not seen any fact to support this. heres a question: At what point in this GW mess are we? Can we stop it? Is it beyond hope? Can we slow it down? Nodoby knows!!! Because nobody has figured out at what point in the whole GW timeline we are. So....

To quote "Band of Brothers": "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function."

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by Njaco

To quote "Band of Brothers": "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function."

Thankfully the logic of war doesn't equate the logic of life!

I would rather fight to preserve this planet in working order than "cut and run" and just hope everything turns out okay... Once we know exactly how far we are in the process of GCC - then it will probably be too late.

What logic? I already explained the logic - and how do we stop it: Stop driving as much cars, stop flying as much, stop wrapping everything in plastic, stop eating so much meat etc etc... - life doesn't have to get boring and stop - just less of the overexcessive consumption we have today. Heck it would take 9 planets to provide the resources for a contemporary western lifestyle for all people on this planet. Bigger and better doesn't always work - there simply is a size limit of this planet - The Easter Isles is a perfect example of what lies in wait if we do not act.

As for ice ages and the likes:
here is a short explanation: "as you already mentioned the global climate has shifted and varied for billions of year. The oldest palaeoclimatic records have allowed us to reconstruct climate fairly reliably during the last 500 million years. Over this time, the global climate has moved from extensive periods of global warmth to periods of global cold several times, each lasting 100 million years or more. Although today we are concerned about global warming, we do in fact lie in the middle of global ice-house climate, which began 40 million years ago, when the first permanent ice sheets formed on Antarctica. The change from the much warmer global climate which existed during the age of the dinosaurs, when global average temperature was perhaps 10°C higher than at present, is thought to have been caused by changes in the distribution of landmasses and the associated changes to energy redistribution throughout the climate system.

Within the long-term global icehouse climate, much shorter-term fluctuations in global climate have occurred. Relatively cold periods known as Ice Ages or glacials, each lasting roughly 100,000 years, are interspersed with much shorter warmer episodes or interglacials, lasting only 10,000 years. We now have a relatively clear record of such climatic fluctuations over the last 2 million years. Currently, the global climate lies within an interglacial. Global average temperature 20,000 years ago towards the end of the last Ice Age was some 5°C lower than today, when the north polar ice sheets were expanded to cover a considerably greater area of the continental Northern Hemisphere than is the case today. These glacial-interglacial fluctuations are driven by changes in the position of the Earth in its orbit around the Sun, and enhanced by climatic feedback processes which involve changes in ocean circulation and the greenhouse gas composition of the atmosphere."

(this is from a previous post by me)

Oh and soil samples are NOT guesswork - but a very exact science.

As for fox news - glad to hear you don't support it - its pure propaganda - nothing less and nothing more. Actually its the breadbasket of most journalism schools around the world - when they want to show how not to do things.