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Old 05-11-2008, 06:26 PM   #1
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"Hate": Will British Columbia tribunal know it when it sees it?

Editorials & Opinion | "Hate": Will B.C. tribunal know it when it sees it? | Seattle Times Newspaper

"Hate": Will B.C. tribunal know it when it sees it?

Canada, which has made "hate speech" against the law, now struggles to balance political correctness with freedom.

We do not envy the Canadians. They have entrusted to their government a power Americans never would, and they follow it into foolishness.In the week of June 2, a body of bureaucrats called the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal will call on the carpet author Mark Steyn. A bellicose champion of the West, Steyn predicts in his new book, "America Alone," that Muslims will swarm over Europe, ban alcohol and put women in veils. Maclean's magazine printed an excerpt that outraged Islamic Canadians, who complained to human-rights tribunals in Ottawa and the provinces.

Steyn's book may well be hateful in some way. The Seattle Times thought the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad were hateful, and did not reprint them. That was one newspaper's decision. In Canada, the law makes such questions the government's decision.

British Columbia now bans all words and images "likely to expose a person ... to hatred or contempt" because of race, religion, age, disability, sex, marital status or sexual orientation." This sounds like a libel law for groups, except that libel is a misstatement of fact that damages an individual reputation. In the United States, for a public figure to be libeled, the false statement has to be made maliciously or recklessly.

The Canadian idea of hate speech is less specific and more dangerous. Hate is like obscenity, about which Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously said, "I know it when I see it." The difference is that a ban on obscenity does not touch political discourse, and a ban on hate does.

It also sets up government for open ridicule. Steyn is gleefully marketing his book as a "Canadian hate crime" and daring the tribunal to pronounce him bad.

Racial harmony in Canada would have been safer had the question never become official.



Writer finds himself in eye of media storm

Writer finds himself in eye of media storm

Human Rights Issue; Mark Steyn in thick of heated debate

Joseph Brean, National Post Published: Saturday, May 10, 2008
Related Topics

As the debate over human rights commissions and free speech became a media gong show this week, it was easy to forget that just two months ago, it was on the fringes of Canadian political discourse, focused on the travails of a little-known white supremacist.

Back then, as right-wing bloggers blasted the country's human rights bureaucracy in harsh, simplistic and often inaccurate terms, the issue was easily ignored by the media because it seemed to recall Oscar Wilde's lament that scandal is gossip made tedious by morality.

But gradually, the issue mushroomed.

Evidence emerged of shady online investigatory practices at the Canadian Human Rights Commission, including the alleged hacking of a civilian's computer, which led to ongoing investigations by police and the Privacy Commissioner.

In Ottawa, a Liberal MP proposed scrapping the commissions' mandate to deal with hate speech, and two Conservative Cabinet ministers expressed their own worries about free speech, despite a rumoured order that the government caucus keep quiet.

And as the focus shifted to the hate speech prosecution of Canada's century-old newsmagazine, Maclean's, and its star columnist, Mark Steyn, special interest groups from across the spectrum started to weigh in with their concerns, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, PEN Canada, B'nai Brith Canada and the Canadian Association of Journalists.

"This thing has turned into a circus," said Warren Kinsella, a former Liberal spin doctor and Mr. Steyn's self-appointed nemesis in the battle over section 13-1 of Canada's Human Rights Code, which makes it an offence to spread messages that are "likely to expose" people to "hatred or contempt."

The ever-expanding publicity of that circus -- due largely to the efforts of Ezra Levant, himself the subject of a hate speech complaint in Alberta for publishing the Danish Muhammad cartoons, whose blog has become a clearing house for human rights skepticism -- has also inspired a flurry of libel lawsuits between representatives of the two sides.

This week marked a climax of sorts, as Mr. Steyn's promotional tour for his book America Alone -- an excerpt of which led to the complaint against Maclean's -- rolled through Toronto, and the issue was addressed on the country's top current affairs programs, from CBC's George Stroumboulopoulos to CTS's Michael Coren Show, CTV's Mike Duffy and TVO's Steve Paikin.

Mr. Paikin's show was a particular highlight, because he also hosted three law students who, as members of the Canadian Islamic Congress, are the public face of the complaint against Maclean's.

Having initially refused to debate Mr. Steyn directly, they were forced into it when Mr. Steyn challenged Mr. Paikin, on live television, to moderate an actual debate.

"Oh my, what a show," Mr. Paikin wrote on his blog afterward, calling it "one of the most heated we've ever done," and saying that the students made the right decision to debate, because they "would have looked like hypocrites had they not, given that they've been calling for an open debate on the subject matter for weeks."

But if the feisty rhetoric on television and talk radio brought glee to fans of Mr. Steyn and critics of the commissions', it also served to invigorate their champions.

"It did seem passingly strange to a lot of people that he was prepared to have a debate with a bunch of kids, effectively, but he isn't prepared to debate somebody who is more or less his own size," said Mr. Kinsella, who has challenged Mr. Steyn to a debate next month at the Public Policy Forum in Ottawa and called him a "chickensh**" for not accepting.

Mr. Kinsella, who said he believes the complaint against Maclean's is without merit and has warned the students as much, said critics of human rights law are not thinking of the implications of "castrating or denuding the country of any kind of human rights code, and what the consequences will be for Islamic extremists or neo-Nazis.

"That's what those guys most desire."

At the same time, he says there is "no way that there's going to be wholesale change to the federal human rights code while there's a minority government. It's become too hot an issue."

"I don't know why Warren Kinsella is inserting himself into my hate crime. Why doesn't he get a hate crime of his own?" Mr. Steyn quipped in response.

The answer, of course, is that the human rights prosecution of Maclean's is becoming the scandal du jour, and it is now a recurring theme in the national media, even though the news pages of the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail have so far ignored the issue.

Just this week came a new development, when an editorial cartoonist for the Halifax Chronicle-Herald became the target of a complaint at the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission, for his cartoon about the staying of charges in a recent terrorism case.

A Halifax Islamic group filed a complaint with the police and the commission, saying the April 18 cartoon creates "an environment of hate for its depiction a woman in a burka, holding a sign that reads "I want millions" and saying "I can put it towards my husband's next training camp."

If the Maclean's complaint is any guide, Nova Scotian journalists will not take kindly to this challenge to their traditional freedoms, no matter what they think of Mr. Steyn's famously contrarian views, or Mr. Levant's campaign to "denormalize" the commissions.

"Nobody's going to be building statues to me," Mr. Steyn said. "But I think in a few years time, if we retrieve Canadian liberty, then people will forget me and Ezra Levant. We'll be obscure footnotes. But if this thing grows and expands the way [Barbara Hall, Chief Commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission] wants it to expand, then I think people will look back and say, 'God, why didn't we pay attention to Steyn and Levant?'

"I mean, if you were casting this drama in its most appealing light, you would want someone like David Suzuki to have fallen afoul of the human rights commissions, and then everybody would be on board with it. Or Margaret Atwood. But the reality is that there's no reason why that can't happen," Mr. Steyn said.

THE LAWSUITS

RICHARD WARMAN

Richard Warman, former employee of the Canadian Human Rights Commission and a frequent third-party complainant.

versus Ezra Levant, conservative blogger; Kathy Shaidle, blogger at fivefeetoffury.com; Kate McMillan, blogger at smalldeadanimals. com; Mark and Connie Fournier, bloggers at freedominion.ca; Jonathan Kay, managing editor, Comment, National Post.

WHY? Libelcomplaintforpublishingclaimsinanaffidavitthat Mr. Warman posted racist comments about Senator Anne Cools on a Web forum

RICHARD WARMAN AND WARREN KINSELLA

Richard Warman, former employee of the Canadian Human Rights Commission and a frequent third-party complainant, and Warren Kinsella, author of Web of Hate, former Liberal spin doctor and activist blogger.

versus Mark and Connie Fournier, bloggers at freedominion.ca.

WHY? Libelcomplaintfora WebpostingthataccusedMr. Warman and Mr. Kinsella of "Nazi-like behaviour."

GIACOMO VIGNA

Giacomo Vigna, Canadian Human Rights Commission lawyer. versus Ezra Levant, conservative blogger

WHY? Libel complaint for blog postings that mocked Mr. Vigna's refusal to testify at a hate speech hearing because he was "not in a serene state of mind."

jbrean@nationalpost.com
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:14 PM   #2
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sounds like a cross between Orwells 1984 (thoughtcrime) and the early fifties the US (Mccarthyism)
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:35 AM   #3
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Holy God damned mother f*cking piece of sh*t !

I'm starting to believe Canadians (especially English-Canadians) are so pissed off of being confused with Americans that they are ready to do anything to distinguish themselves from the USA... Even turn our sh*tty country into an even sh*ttier country, just to not look like Americans.

Time to burn the constitution, folks, and re-build the country from the ground up.
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Old 05-12-2008, 12:41 PM   #4
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Holy God damned mother f*cking piece of sh*t !

I'm starting to believe Canadians (especially English-Canadians) are so pissed off of being confused with Americans that they are ready to do anything to distinguish themselves from the USA... Even turn our sh*tty country into an even sh*ttier country, just to not look like Americans.

Time to burn the constitution, folks, and re-build the country from the ground up.
Don't worry Maestro there is a solution. Next time Quebec wants to hold a referendum on separation we need to say PLEASE DO. Here's your bill for 25% of the national debt, and you've now cashed in your last Multibillion dollar tranfer "equalization" payment from Western Canada. Send a pink slip to all of the Federal workers in PQ. {Don't let the door hit you on the @ss on the way out}

Drop Quebec's 75 seats in Parlament {64 are liberal or Separatist} and the Math looks a whole lot different.

OOps. Kinda went on a rant there. Sorry if I p*ssed anyone off, I'm about as enthusiastic about the Canadian left-wingnuts as Matt & TO are about Hillary.

For those of you not familiar with Canadian politics the Conservatives on the map are BLUE and the Liberals are RED NDP are socialist and in ORANGE {Quebec Separatist party is Teal/Turquoise}
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:19 PM   #5
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Time to burn the constitution, folks, and re-build the country from the ground up.
I am not familiar with Canadian politics at all, but that sounds like
a place to start to fix something that's broken.

Charles
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:29 PM   #6
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I feel for ya' guys.

Do you have a Supreme Court where this will wind up? Can the law be struck down as unconstitutional?
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:43 PM   #7
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I feel for ya' guys.

Do you have a Supreme Court where this will wind up? Can the law be struck down as unconstitutional?
Yes BUT, the supreme court justices are appointed by the PM, no debate, no confirmation vote. After a dozen years of liberal government they have a fairly "leftist" skew. Also are Senators are also appointed at the whim of the PM, so again we have a bunch of lefty's there. It's so ridiculous that even in Alberta {which I would argue is THE MOST CONSERVATIVE state/province in North America - 28 out of 28 seats} the last Liberal Prime Minister could appoint LIBERALS to the Senate, ignoring the howling rage of the general public.

Note: The Conservative government has proposed having Senators ELECTED and Judges CONFIRMED by Parlament. {but the government does not have the votes yet}
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:35 PM   #8
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Yes BUT, the supreme court justices are appointed by the PM, no debate, no confirmation vote. After a dozen years of liberal government they have a fairly "leftist" skew. Also are Senators are also appointed at the whim of the PM, so again we have a bunch of lefty's there. It's so ridiculous that even in Alberta {which I would argue is THE MOST CONSERVATIVE state/province in North America - 28 out of 28 seats} the last Liberal Prime Minister could appoint LIBERALS to the Senate, ignoring the howling rage of the general public.

Note: The Conservative government has proposed having Senators ELECTED and Judges CONFIRMED by Parlament. {but the government does not have the votes yet}

Oy-vey! Sounds like a perfect setup for a runaway govt.
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:40 PM   #9
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Oy-vey! Sounds like a perfect setup for a runaway govt.

Yep! It's a screwy system, the present government is trying to change that, but it's a minority gov't
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:03 PM   #10
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The reason for the hate crimes law is because of a clown named Ernst Zundel who was a Holocaust denier , and the whole Nazi ball of wax. There was no law that prohibited free speech and his publications and books and promoting of violence and racial hate , so hate crime was made a felony under the Criminal Code uf Canada .
It took years to deport Zundel back to Germany and he was even bounced back to Canada from the US
It s worth a read about this guy
Ernst Zündel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:17 PM   #11
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The reason for the hate crimes law is because of a clown named Ernst Zundel who was a Holocaust denier , and the whole Nazi ball of wax. There was no law that prohibited free speech and his publications and books and promoting of violence and racial hate , so hate crime was made a felony under the Criminal Code uf Canada .
It took years to deport Zundel back to Germany and he was even bounced back to Canada from the US
It s worth a read about this guy
Ernst Zündel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes Pb, I guess the problem is when they move on from LEGITIMATE targets of hate-mongering {like Zundel} to start a PC campaign to silence free speech.

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British Columbia now bans all words and images "likely to expose a person ... to hatred or contempt" because of race, religion, age, disability, sex, marital status or sexual orientation." This sounds like a libel law for groups, except that libel is a misstatement of fact that damages an individual reputation. In the United States, for a public figure to be libeled, the false statement has to be made maliciously or recklessly.
I feel that your comments have exposed to contempt my Satanic, Masochistic, Crack-smoking, Communist, Beastiality cult...
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:32 PM   #12
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Don't worry Maestro there is a solution. Next time Quebec wants to hold a referendum on separation we need to say PLEASE DO. Here's your bill for 25% of the national debt, and you've now cashed in your last Multibillion dollar tranfer "equalization" payment from Western Canada. Send a pink slip to all of the Federal workers in PQ. {Don't let the door hit you on the @ss on the way out}

Drop Quebec's 75 seats in Parlament {64 are liberal or Separatist} and the Math looks a whole lot different.

OOps. Kinda went on a rant there. Sorry if I p*ssed anyone off, I'm about as enthusiastic about the Canadian left-wingnuts as Matt & TO are about Hillary.
That's a solution, indeed... However, knowing the PQ they wouldn't pay the bills...

But you see, that's a very Nationalistic way of thinking... When a Canadian criticize the way an other bunch of Canadians think, he get told : "If you're not happy, get the f*ck out." It could work... But it got a few weak points...

1 - Québec (as well as every other provinces East of Saskatchewan) couldn't live on it's own... So what do you think is gonna happen if Québec becomes a country ? It will fall into the darkness and bring all of Canada (except may be BC and Alberta) with him. How ? An independent Québec would break Canada in two. The maritimes will die in the East, and like no one in Canada (except Ontarians) likes the province of Ontario (geez, I bet some Ontarians even think that Toronto is the center of universe), the other provinces in the West would declare their independence and "kick Ontario out". And a lonely Ontario would also die... just like Québec.

2 - Canada has a weird immigration politic... Educated peoples coming from Europe are (generally speaking) screwed up when they arrive here. I personnally know a Bosnian with a university degree in French. That guy could teach French in any school. But professionnal unions are giving him all kind of troubles. As a result, he is working with me as a security officer. And it is not only reserved to the educational system, it is working that way in all other professionnal systems like the medical system or legal system.

However, if you are a moron (in the way that you don't have any education) from any third world country, you can get in with your 10 children, cash your welfare check and live as a perfect @sshole. So we end up with a lot of Arabians who hate "the West" and peoples from South-America who are very Catholic to the point of considering the use of condoms or abortion as a sin.

So in a few years, how do you think it will ends up ? They will decide for us.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:54 PM   #13
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That's a solution, indeed... However, knowing the PQ they wouldn't pay the bills...

But you see, that's a very Nationalistic way of thinking... When a Canadian criticize the way an other bunch of Canadians think, he get told : "If you're not happy, get the f*ck out." It could work... But it got a few weak points...

1 - Québec (as well as every other provinces East of Saskatchewan) couldn't live on it's own...

2 - Canada has a weird immigration politic... Educated peoples coming from Europe are (generally speaking) screwed up when they arrive here.

So in a few years, how do you think it will ends up ? They will decide for us.
I just think that it's like a bad marriage, if we're fighting all the time and they are not happy, well then let them go if they want.

But they should not expect to take all of the northern part of Quebec that wes a part of "Rupert's Land", then Canada, and finally added to the Province of Quebec to try to keep them happy. Let them keep "Lower Canada" and perhaps the lower half of the current provincial boundries, but the unpopulated north should revert to Canada.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:50 PM   #14
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Heh... If you do that you will have a civil war on your hands... Don't you know that we are already upset that the Federal gouvernment took 30% of our land (Labrador) to give it to the newfies with some of our hydro-eletrical power ?

Add that to the fact that 90% of our dams (that we paid with our taxes money) are in Rupert's Land and you've got a hell of a good reason to start a war.
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