If Foreigners Could Vote in '08

[plan_D]

Renrich and Syscom, I'm sorry but those comments were bizarre and quite frankly stupid. I completely understand your feelings about international thoughts of the USA and I certainly do not care what the world thinks of the U.K. However, by saying that you would simply vote the opposition of anyone the world would pick you've just shown that you're not thinking for yourselfs but for America's image. If you truly don't care what the world thinks of the U.S. you would vote for whoever you wanted - whether the world agreed or not.

As for the world respecting the U.S.A. - I think it's already there to some degree but to earn respect you must also respect others; it's true of nations just as much as it is of people. If you care enough about the world to want their respect then you care about what the world thinks of you. And quite frankly the U.S government should care what the world thinks, they should take every ounce of information in when dealing with foreign powers.

As for anyone fearing the U.S ... there's nothing to fear. A large military doesn't create fear; the U.S hasn't got the society, the leadership or the willingness to cause fear. Give the U.S.A a military dictatorship and a modicum of insanity then you'll cause fear. Afghanistan didn't fear a U.S. invasion, Saddam Hussein and Iraq didn't fear a U.S. invasion and I'm pretty sure Iran doesn't. The only people the U.S. should be scaring are the people who aren't afraid of suffering and dying... so it just isn't going to be achieved.

[pbfoot]

Amen Plan D much more diplomatic then my reply

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Renrich and Syscom, I'm sorry but those comments were bizarre and quite frankly stupid. I completely understand your feelings about international thoughts of the USA and I certainly do not care what the world thinks of the U.K. However, by saying that you would simply vote the opposition of anyone the world would pick you've just shown that you're not thinking for yourselfs but for America's image. If you truly don't care what the world thinks of the U.S. you would vote for whoever you wanted - whether the world agreed or not.

As for the world respecting the U.S.A. - I think it's already there to some degree but to earn respect you must also respect others; it's true of nations just as much as it is of people. If you care enough about the world to want their respect then you care about what the world thinks of you. And quite frankly the U.S government should care what the world thinks, they should take every ounce of information in when dealing with foreign powers.

As for anyone fearing the U.S ... there's nothing to fear. A large military doesn't create fear; the U.S hasn't got the society, the leadership or the willingness to cause fear. Give the U.S.A a military dictatorship and a modicum of insanity then you'll cause fear. Afghanistan didn't fear a U.S. invasion, Saddam Hussein and Iraq didn't fear a U.S. invasion and I'm pretty sure Iran doesn't. The only people the U.S. should be scaring are the people who aren't afraid of suffering and dying... so it just isn't going to be achieved.

You're wise way beyond your years.....

[plan_D]

Scary thought that I'm 21 on thursday...

[mkloby]

PD - I think you took those comments a little too seriously. I think what they were getting at is the world views US politics in the light of their own domestic politics, which is completely normal and expected.

[syscom3]

Whats best for America is not necessarily best for the world.

The ignorance of foreigners about the US and its political system is astounding.

[Emac44]

Sys What I see the US does in Internal and External Policies is that is voted on in a democratic Nation that I see the US is. Your Nations Foriegn Policies are formulated by 1 US Congress 2 US Senate same as US Domestic Policies. The image coming from the USA isn't going to please every one regardless. But a Nation like the US formulates policies based on how it benefits first the US Domestically or Internationaly then applies those policies to suit US First Then US ALLIES Militarily and by Trade, Anything else to me is at times pointless. The US Isn't a Military or Civilian Dictatorship but a Democratic Nations. And in such as a Democratic Nation has the right to formulate her own Policies. Whether that is beneificial to my own country Australia or not. But IMAGE is the last thing I would expect when dealing with a Country like the USA. What is important to me if I was Prime Minister of Australia would be maintaining Bilateral Agreements whether they be Trade Import Export etc and Military Treaties like ANZUS. The Image of how the USA appears is a non issue to me as maintiaining Treaties and Economic Policies tied up in Miltitary or Economic Treaties are most important. When one Democratic Country deals with another. I hope that explains how I view the US and her Treaties with my own country Australia.

Sys as IMAGES goes. Yes the USA has some really great problems appearing to other Nations as being fair and democratic Nation. They see the US as at times being a contridiction with areas of Internal problems like race relationships to name just one area and these Nations who view the US on this IMAGE alone miss the point. My point Sys that all Nations have similar if not equal problems Internally. But does this mean I would condemn the US due to a poor image problems. No definitely not. As for the IMAGE of the USA externally and knowing the US is a Democratic Nation who maintains her right to formulate their own Domestic and Foriegn Policies. One has to except that not everything the USA will place into policy will benefit some one elses Nation. Either Foriegn or Domestic Policies. Nation like my own don't always consult with the US or other Allies on our Foriegn or Domestic Policies. Why would I expect the USA to act differently from my own Country in this case. If IMAGE was the issue Sys in 2001 John Howard the then Prime Minister of Australia would not have invoked the ANZUS Treating after September 2001. Australia would have severed ties with the USA long before that event and Economic Treaties would not exsist like the US/Australia Free Trade Agreement. Since Afghanistan and Iraq Australia has been seen by less favourable Nations as the LAP DOG of the USA. So much for IMAGE. So at the end of the day what does this image mean to me of Australia? Nothing as long as we maintain Treaties Economic or Military with the USA. Your country and mine Sys are not in the business of creating IMAGE Relationship basis

That is why if I had a vote or a say I would choose John McCain as well. As I view him as a man who would maintain good relationships either by our Economic or Military Treaties between Australia and the US. I don't believe Obama or Clinton would care 2 hoots in my opinion but McCain does strike me as he would

[syscom3]

The biggest problem foreigners have is their image of the US is formed by their leftist or socialist media. Plus they're too believing of the Hollywood movies.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by renrich

Emac, I like your choice and your reasons for that choice. I may not always agree with everything McCain espouses but he is a man of good character and understands our national security issues.

I choose by how I view McCain Obama and Clinton Renrich. I also noted Plan going on about the US has to earn respect. I see that as a two way street. Yes Respect is earned but it goes the other way up the Street as well. Other Nations other then the US have to also earn the respect of the US. It is not something that is one way traffic as far as I am concerned. Plan I know quiet a few Australians who have no respect for the USA and similar Americans who have no respect for other countries. That doesn't mean our Nations and our Governments have to follow suit. But between the UK Australia and the USA there is mutual respect and observance as such by our respective Governments and our people overall. What I am saying Plan is don't always expect the US or even Australia to give respect unless you apply the same rules to the UK in return

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The biggest problem foreigners have is their image of the US is formed by their leftist or socialist media. Plus they're too believing of the Hollywood movies.

Sys I hope you are joking. But I thought I spelled out pretty clearly in my post to you that Respect is a 2 way street. I don't expect of the USA to always be the one giving its all for my Nations Benefit. You belittle me if you think I view the USA as one huge Hollywood Movie Set. Plus I don't buy into Socialist or Leftist Idealism. And I am according to you one of those Foriegners who is ignorant of how the US formulates her own Domestic and Foriegn Policies. I am not sure how I view your last post Sys

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Emac44

Sys I hope you are joking. But I thought I spelled out pretty clearly in my post to you that Respect is a 2 way street. I don't expect of the USA to always be the one giving its all for my Nations Benefit. You belittle me if you think I view the USA as one huge Hollywood Movie Set. Plus I don't buy into Socialist or Leftist Idealism. And I am according to you one of those Foriegners who is ignorant of how the US formulates her own Domestic and Foriegn Policies. I am not sure how I view your last post Sys

I didnt mean "all" foreigners. Just the ones who think they know everything about the US and have never traveled here.

My opinions on that subject were formed by the ones I met while overseas in their countries.

Obviously you've traveled quite a bit so your magnitudes better to chat with than the retards who tend to lecture to us.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I didnt mean "all" foreigners. Just the ones who think they know everything about the US and have never traveled here.

My opinions on that subject were formed by the ones I met while overseas in their countries.

Obviously you've traveled quite a bit so your magnitudes better to chat with than the retards who tend to lecture to us.

Thank you Sys. I was wondering about that. However I have never travelled to the US but met many Americans not only here in Australia but overseas as well. And we share something in common which I based my opinion on. Respect for each others Democratic Processes. I don' lecture to you or any other US Citizen. In other words Sys I suppose to make it easier is this. People in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones. In other words fix up your own **** before critizing some one elses ****. I believe the Americans have every right to formulate their own Governmental Policies that suits them best. And then after doing so they the Americans formulate their Policies and how it effects your Allies. And I find that very reasonable Sys and have no problems with how the US formulates Domestic or Foriegn Policies under US Democratic Processes. I might not agree with everything the US does or doesn't do. But that doesn't mean I disrespect the US or her Government or the citizens of the US because there are some policies from the US I agree or disagree with. But the old adage I live by is this Sys. Every now and again friends need to critize each other or remark to each other if we disagree or agree on important issues and I see Allies like the US and Australia having that relationship. Which takes nothing away but adds to that Friendship between your country and mine. That is how I view the US/Australian International Relationship Sys

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Emac44

Sys as IMAGES goes. Yes the USA has some really great problems appearing to other Nations as being fair and democratic Nation. They see the US as at times being a contridiction with areas of Internal problems like race relationships to name just one area and these Nations who view the US on this IMAGE alone miss the point.

Race is a complicated issue in the US. One major problem I see in how the media "evaluates" race relationships in the US is they like to take white suburban neighborhoods or lofty professions or career fields and measure the percentages of minorities. Obviously you cannot force individuals to move to a certain neighborhood to acheive what you think is the definition of racial unity. Human beings have a natural inclination to want to be surrounded by those to whom they can more closely relate.

I think it can be definitively stated that pouring additional money through many programs in order to "level the career playing field" among various groups has been almost a total failure. If for some reason you think it works, just do a little research on the educational system in NJ.

[A4K]

Good case Emac. I'm not a big politics buff (generally I disagree with voting-it only seems to encourage them), but I've read elsewhere similar comments regarding McCain. He sounds the best of the bunch by far.
As for Hillary bloody Clinton....

[renrich]

Plan D, Let me try to explain to you and others why I made the remarks I made about respect for and fear of the US. First, I don't believe that George Bush enjoys a lot of popularity in your country or in many foreign countries. As an aside I don't believe Tony Blair enjoys great popularity in your country either. One reason Bush may not be admired abroad is that he is not "refined" like Clinton was. Another is that Bush is regarded as a "cowboy" sort that may "shoot from the hip." He employed people like Rumsfeld who did not seem to revere the customs and culture of old Europe. Well, perhaps the attitude some of us may have here in the US is that twice in the 20th century you people in Europe got your oxen in the ditch with WW1 and WW2 and we had to send our young men over to help out and many of them stayed forever. Check out the white crosses some time. What did we gain from that huge expenditure of blood, bone and treasure? If you checked nothing you are on the ball. We also lost many of our best and brightest keeping South Korea free from communism and we tried but failed in Viet Nam with huge loss of blood and dollars. Once again our gain from these efforts was zero. I might add that our British cousins have always stood with us to a more or lesser degree in these efforts. To me, we should have earned great respect in the credit column. Let us now address fear. During the Berlin Airlift, I don't believe the Soviets respected us. In 1962, I don't believe the Soviets respected Kennedy. They allowed those C47s and C54s to land with their loads of coal and food and they pulled their missles out of Cuba because they feared us. The reason that North Korea has not invaded South Korea again is because they fear what we will do. The reason that communist China has not invaded Formosa is that they fear the US. We spent trillions of dollars and I and many others served in our military to keep the Soviets in check until their system crumbled from the pressure. You claim that Saddam did not fear us. Perhaps he should have. I believe that one of the reasons that Bush and Blair decided to take out Saddam was to throw a scare into Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran and the rest of those middle eastern countries. If and when we have a stable government in Iraq with a semi-permanent US military mission there to impose stability in that region, you may thank Bush and Blair for that condition. We will have that if the democrats in our country don't screw it up. If Iran does not get nuclear weapons, it will because they fear the US and Israel, not because they respect those countries. I have been making up my own mind about the candidate I would vote for ever since the 1950s when I became eligible to vote. I don't need any help in that regard. My bet is, though, that if a poll of the "world" was taken prior to our election the democrat candidate would win because they are so"worldly" and "sensitive" not my man, McCain.